changes to tumble BAD!

[Xaerxiessia]

When I ask what has been lost, I have been asking what was the benefit received from tumble that has gone away. So far all I've really seen anyone say is movement speed and a specific use of a Pale Master enhancement. That isn't nothing. But I can't see the game breaking problem here. I understand you don't like it, and you are entitled to your opinion. But I am also entitled to mine.

And there 's only one curse worse than blindness , this is the self-centered bad faith.

 

[Shardrena]

Still not sure what the "bad change" to Tumble even is suppose to be. Or why it's ruining things for a number of people on the forum. Outside of shallow water, when was Tumble ever a better movement option then just running? In combat, it rarely ends up mattering, because if you're tumbling for extra AC you're not contributing to defeating the enemies. If someone was just using it to negate shallow water movement speeds and faster evasion of giant stomp/smash attacks, then it only required enough investment to get a total bonus of +1. And moving slightly faster in shallow water is kind of a non-issue, IMO.

Yes, I noticed this morning that there's 2 "charges" for physically dodging attacks while blocking. Is this the change that "ruined" tumble? Those charges regenerate fairly quickly from what I've seen, and will let dodging/tumble serve it's intended combat role just fine. It's not game breaking, because that mechanic doesn't really need to be used much anyway. And besides, having limited but regenerating uses for such a physical dodge ability isn't that unusual in MMOs.

 

[Phoenicis]

Still not sure what the "bad change" to Tumble even is suppose to be. Or why it's ruining things for a number of people on the forum. Outside of shallow water, when was Tumble ever a better movement option then just running? In combat, it rarely ends up mattering, because if you're tumbling for extra AC you're not contributing to defeating the enemies. If someone was just using it to negate shallow water movement speeds and faster evasion of giant stomp/smash attacks, then it only required enough investment to get a total bonus of +1. And moving slightly faster in shallow water is kind of a non-issue, IMO.

Yes, I noticed this morning that there's 2 "charges" for physically dodging attacks while blocking. Is this the change that "ruined" tumble? Those charges regenerate fairly quickly from what I've seen, and will let dodging/tumble serve it's intended combat role just fine. It's not game breaking, because that mechanic doesn't really need to be used much anyway. And besides, having limited but regenerating uses for such a physical dodge ability isn't that unusual in MMOs.

The changes don't bother you. Fine.

Base two, max of three charges bothers me.
Eight second recharge bothers me.
Being locked in place when blocking and out of charges (or no tumble at all) bothers me.
Losing a charge with no movement if you hit the tumble key a second (or third) time to quickly bothers me.

I understand there was an exploit in Epics that needed to be fixed. The exploit was brought into being by the addition of experimental tumble controls. Remove them, done. Not this. . . Mess.

And to be honest, I find myself surprised by just how much I dislike this change.

 

[shmagmhar]

and also , everybody that tested this on Lamania and told the devs it was brilliant , like what where you thinking?

 

[Shardrena]

Honestly, I noticed the "charge" icons a couple days ago when blocking a poison attack from scorpions, but didn't really know what they were. Didn't matter either.

And really? How often are you holding block for any length of time rather then using it to negate a poison strike or a clearly telegraphed wraith's drain touch?

 

[Phoenicis]

Honestly, I noticed the "charge" icons a couple days ago when blocking a poison attack from scorpions, but didn't really know what they were. Didn't matter either.

And really? How often are you holding block for any length of time rather then using it to negate a poison strike or a clearly telegraphed wraith's drain touch?

The change to tumble does not affect your playstyle. Fine. I get it.

It does affect others, some severely. Not everyone will be affected by changes to the same degree. It hits me and the way I play often enough to be annoying and remind me that I dislike this implementation. I can only imagine how badly some high tumble investment builds may have been hit.

Continue to enjoy your playstyle, and not be affected by the tumble changes. Those of us who are affected will continue to be unhappy with this change.

 

[shmagmhar]

once you get tumble over 100 it starts to become useful in the past anyway , IDK about now , if you learn to use it correctly . lets say you are surrounded by 10 mobs and you want to retreat , i feel like tumbling out of it , you have a better chance then jumping or walking out of it .

that was what tumble was for in 3.5 . you roll high on tumble you avoid attacks of opportunity . its a movement action , you can still attack and use spells after tumbling in the same turn.

maybe the dodge % is based on your tumble skill rank?

I feel the choice of using the green triagly thingies was a poor choice aesthetically as well . the colors seems to suggest it more of a magic type thing and seems out of place

 

[Epicsoul]

While I may agree with the argument that the new tumble movement lacks the same level of fun as its predecessor, I find it to be far more practical in numerous situations. Need to divert boss attention in a pinch? Tumble buys valuable time. Surrounded by a pack of enemies and also have Illusory Escape? Tumble provides a swift exit strategy. Caught off guard by a Doom reaper? Tumble. While I empathize with those who miss the old mechanics, personally, I appreciate the increased utility of this updated approach.

 

[pame12]

Still not sure what the "bad change" to Tumble even is suppose to be. Or why it's ruining things for a number of people on the forum. Outside of shallow water, when was Tumble ever a better movement option then just running? In combat, it rarely ends up mattering, because if you're tumbling for extra AC you're not contributing to defeating the enemies. If someone was just using it to negate shallow water movement speeds and faster evasion of giant stomp/smash attacks, then it only required enough investment to get a total bonus of +1. And moving slightly faster in shallow water is kind of a non-issue, IMO.

Yes, I noticed this morning that there's 2 "charges" for physically dodging attacks while blocking. Is this the change that "ruined" tumble? Those charges regenerate fairly quickly from what I've seen, and will let dodging/tumble serve it's intended combat role just fine. It's not game breaking, because that mechanic doesn't really need to be used much anyway. And besides, having limited but regenerating uses for such a physical dodge ability isn't that unusual in MMOs.

They upgraded the turd icecream into a nice vanilla one, and now they put it back to a turd with some minor patches of vanilla.

 

[pame12]

While I may agree with the argument that the new tumble movement lacks the same level of fun as its predecessor, I find it to be far more practical in numerous situations. Need to divert boss attention in a pinch? Tumble buys valuable time. Surrounded by a pack of enemies and also have Illusory Escape? Tumble provides a swift exit strategy. Caught off guard by a Doom reaper? Tumble. While I empathize with those who miss the old mechanics, personally, I appreciate the increased utility of this updated approach.

It could still be better, for example, if you are slowed by anything at all, it disables tumble, which I think is a bit much, especially with a 2/3 charge limit.

 

[Xaerxiessia]

and also , everybody that tested this on Lamania and told the devs it was brilliant , like what where you thinking?

experimental controls , yes, but with or without charges ?
When I read this thread , not all reactions are positive , and the devs only consider those that are.
Cherry-Picking !!!

 

[DDO Gaming]

Intruth unless you regularly used pre-change tumble you shouldn't be commenting on this thread. I only tested tumble because of the subsequent eruption to understand why it was generating so much emotion and I could immediately see...2 tumbles + a delay made it useless for attempting to tumble through traps.

Sure if you mix&match tumble with running etc then its Ok but if you rely on tumble as a core skill then...

 

[Dragxon]

Again, this does not answer my question. (see gif above) What have we LOST. what mechanical advantage did tumble give a player, at all but specifically with traps, that has gone away? dur claimed that we could NO LONGER tumble through traps. I cannot find any indication that tumble USED to give a mechanical advantage against taps. If you want to argue the bonus we NOW get is not enough, I disagree, but fine. But please stop trying to prove the current bonus isn't enough. If tumble never provide a mechanical advantage against traps, then (when it comes to traps) tumble was not nerfed. Even if you don't find the changes useful.

Again, I am willing to be shown that I am wrong. I never used tumble prior to the Experimental changes. My evidence is going through the page history on the wiki. I very well may have missed something. But so far, after repeated asking, no one has explained to me that a mechanical advantage was taken away from tumble. I get that there are now charges. You say that the Jungle of Khyber trap requires more than one tumble, has this changed? could you get through in 1 tumble before the changes? If you could, would that get you through the trap without damage?

There were several uses for tumble before the experimental controls that are now screwed over by the charges.
The first is singing bard songs. Tumble was used to end the song animation early and increase the speed of buffing the raid group. This now takes about twice as long with the charges.
The second big one was repositioning while tanking. There were quite a few fights were tumbling was very helpful like in THTH to dodge the bosses smash was 2 tumbles back then 2 back in to not get knocked down and in SITC to tumble into the trex to not get the hp debuff. The other thing in regards to tanking is turning tumble from a maneuverability skill into a survivability skill with the dodge it grants. Which I dont like trying to play around.
The last small use I can think of is tiles in abbot / any content where people need to move the same amount where tumble was a useful measurement.

I really dislike the charges on tumble and would prefer a revert to original tumble over the charges of tumble if I could choose.

 

[Toede]

Pre-experimental tumble was good for only one thing, durdling with a shield. A dex based class (the group meant to be using it) trying to do that for long, even though blocking, is still going to end up dead. That is not what tumble was meant to be. And pretty much every example I have seen thus far from forum posters other than durdle tanking is also not what tumble was meant for but an alternative use players discovered that ended up being beneficial. Trust me. The developers did not intend for tumble to interupt bard animations or for some niche case of pulling mobs with it.

Experimental, however, was more like how tumble was supposed to function. But, while nifty and even fun, it didn't have much purpose. And then it sat, unfinished and unrefined. The mistake was leaving it like that for so long. The limits in place are limits that should have been imposed a long time ago. Perhaps not as strict as they are but there are limits to tumble now for the same reason you can't jump into the stratosphere. The world needs rules to both create and balance content around.

It's cool to point out buggy behavior with it. The implementation is not perfect and needs more work.

But just crying about not being able to use it the way it was being used, which was obvious to anyone looking at it objectively that it was not what the developers ever meant for it to be used for, or to try to nuke it from orbit in a "if I can't have it, no one can" moment is not feedback. It's more like a tantrum.

 

[Xaerxiessia]

Perhaps not as strict as they are but there are limits to tumble now for the same reason you can't jump into the stratosphere. ......

as in Lammania thread : nice but less restrictive in charge/delay ,[non-counting those who just reacted as "woaw , super , one more new skill" (no comment)]

It's cool to point out buggy behavior with it. The implementation is not perfect and needs more work.

We agree , but : Couldn't we have the new experimental release after the work ?

 

[shmagmhar]

Pre-experimental tumble was good for only one thing, durdling with a shield"

i respectfully disagree . in my experience playing a rogue with high tumble skill . I found it useful for maneuvering around the battlefield .

 

[Ned_Ellis]

Pre-experimental tumble was good for only one thing, durdling with a shield. A dex based class (the group meant to be using it) trying to do that for long, even though blocking, is still going to end up dead. That is not what tumble was meant to be. And pretty much every example I have seen thus far from forum posters other than durdle tanking is also not what tumble was meant for but an alternative use players discovered that ended up being beneficial. Trust me. The developers did not intend for tumble to interupt bard animations or for some niche case of pulling mobs with it.

Experimental, however, was more like how tumble was supposed to function. But, while nifty and even fun, it didn't have much purpose. And then it sat, unfinished and unrefined. The mistake was leaving it like that for so long. The limits in place are limits that should have been imposed a long time ago. Perhaps not as strict as they are but there are limits to tumble now for the same reason you can't jump into the stratosphere. The world needs rules to both create and balance content around.

It's cool to point out buggy behavior with it. The implementation is not perfect and needs more work.

But just crying about not being able to use it the way it was being used, which was obvious to anyone looking at it objectively that it was not what the developers ever meant for it to be used for, or to try to nuke it from orbit in a "if I can't have it, no one can" moment is not feedback. It's more like a tantrum.

Ok, the examples you make are fair unintended uses but the current iteration severely limits other aspects such as the various abilities of passing through mobs and, I believe it hasn't been mentioned yet, the misty step/tumble bonus of Horizon Walker...which is a T5 too. Tumble is a mode of movement, not of travel, nor should it ever have been, but movement yes, not the 'clicky' we have now.

 

[Hutoth]

I really dislike the charges on tumble and would prefer a revert to original tumble over the charges of tumble if I could choose.

This

Let us opt out of all the new tumble malarkey, so folks like me can boing around town like an idiot and break animations (and whatever the hell else my fingers do with it).

I am not here to ask for some alternative stupid new thing to be kept (experimental tumblezerg). I want the old thing.

Listen - I'm not in charge of how my hands and fingers play this game anymore - I'm coming up on 18 years in: my fingers hit the buttons, i just pay for the subscription. I can't make them change.

Let us have a feature switch that gives the "i have no bone in this fight, so I am against you"-folks the new thing that they want, AND does not take away the old thing that I want.

Plox and tyty

 

[pame12]

Experimental, however, was more like how tumble was supposed to function. But, while nifty and even fun, it didn't have much purpose. And then it sat, unfinished and unrefined. The mistake was leaving it like that for so long. The limits in place are limits that should have been imposed a long time ago. Perhaps not as strict as they are but there are limits to tumble now for the same reason you can't jump into the stratosphere. The world needs rules to both create and balance content around.

I really hate the jump cap, and it would make sense in a more realistic world, but in a world where magic is abundant, teleportation isn't a big deal, and you're fighting demigods at this point, why can't you jump more than 4 meters? Or rather, why can't you go up higher than 4 meters at all? What about being able to cast those gravity spells that are so prevalent in sharn? It's pretty inconsistant to me.
I don't see why they did a hard cap, they should do a soft cap where after 40 ranks it still does increase it, but at an exponential rate, so in order to go up a meter from 40, you'd need 20 ranks, and then from that point another meter you'd need 40 ranks, etc...

 

[J1NG]

I really hate the jump cap, and it would make sense in a more realistic world, but in a world where magic is abundant, teleportation isn't a big deal, and you're fighting demigods at this point, why can't you jump more than 4 meters? Or rather, why can't you go up higher than 4 meters at all? What about being able to cast those gravity spells that are so prevalent in sharn? It's pretty inconsistant to me.
I don't see why they did a hard cap, they should do a soft cap where after 40 ranks it still does increase it, but at an exponential rate, so in order to go up a meter from 40, you'd need 20 ranks, and then from that point another meter you'd need 40 ranks, etc...

Quite simply, being able to reach places without Z (height) limitations, means you can break quest designed progressions. Then there's the issue of being able to break out into the Supermap and then reaching places you were never supposed to reach. Hence the limitation of the Jump skill to 40.

J1NG