Ammo Overhaul

[droid327]

I think ranged weapon ammo is low hanging fruit in a lot of ways, and properly reimagined could add some fun new gameplay to ranged builds, improve QOL by reducing inventory waste and chest loot clutter, and create crafting economies, without inflating power creep substantially. Here's what I would suggest:

- remove ammo drops from chest loot entirely
- make basic +0 100% returning ammo available from somewhere for plat, as a basic fallback option
- flame arrow summons a 100% returning flame arrow that does fire damage, scaling with caster level on the same curve as fire damage affix on weapons/rubies
- summon arrow/bolts summon 100% returning ammo, and the scaling bonus to Enchantment becomes a similarly scaling Competence bonus to Ranged Hit and Damage, a la the Marksmanship affix
- crafted ammo now follows Cannith crafting formulas, with mlvl shards, a functional affix shard, a returning shard, and a bonus shard.
- Crafted ammo functional shard recipes added/updated to modern relevant numbers. Typed damage on hit, scaling as per Flame Arrow above. Material and alignment affixes. Proc-chance CC effects possibly including web, flesh to stone, blind, entangle, etc., with DC = 3*mlvl. More exotic effects like EBT, confuse, vuln, etc. could be possible using rarer ingredients and/or locked to higher mlvls. (Could get really creative here too if you wanted...chance on hit to cast CLW Mass around target at clvl=mlvl, chance to proc an additional attack against a nearby enemy a la scattershot, chance to add a stack of some kind of buff that decays stackwise, etc.) Typed bane/slayer ammo with damage and DC scaling as above.
- returning shards start at 80% and scale up to 90, 92, 94, 96, 98, 99%, with the latter being at or near max crafter level. No 100% returning for crafted ammo. Crafts in stacks of 1000. The goal is to make stack size sustainable for regular play (100k shots at 99%) but still require you to purchase refills from crafters and/or craft your own. Also reward investment in crafting level with more valuable products.
- bonus shard requires purified dragonshards, doubles your on-hit damage effects and/or improves your DCs from 3 * mlvl to 4 *

 

[l_remmie]

I agree ammo could use some rework.
Especially the spells, those should just summon 1 100% returning projectile. Add more spells too aligned arrow and elemental arrow as a selector.

All ammo that can be cannith crafted should be removed from the drop table. Instead add some new arrows.
Explode on hit as a low lvl fireball
Entangling vines on the floor on hit
Slow on hit
Curse on hit
Dance on hit with DC
Grease on the floor on hit

Let us be Hawkeye

And lastly add 50-75% returning as low hanging fruit in ranged trees.

 

[Altra]

I like it!

 

[Natashaelle]

Even something so simple as Heroic tier ammo giving +1 ammo bonus to hit and damage ; Paragon tier (levels 11-20) +2 ; Epic +3 ; Legendary +4 would help IMO.

And BTW I am NOT suggesting that conjured Ammo nor House D ammo etc should have anything other than enhancement bonuses !! Just that looted ammo and named ammo from loot chests could have level-appropriate "ammo" bonuses.

Attack speed issues have already been whacked with the nerf hammer, but base damage per attack is still off IMO.

And I don't mean on fully-optimised multi-life toons with many reaper points -- just basic 1st life 28-point toons with little named gear.

 

[Phoenicis]

Say it with me folks: Ammo bonuses do not stack with the weapon firing them.

At level 10 you can have a +5 weapon of your choice, the + on your ammo becomes irrelevant at that point.

Flaming/holy/whatever does stack, but doesn't scale, and slaying still has some minor effect into low epics but not beyond.

Ideally, every ranged tree would grant 100% returning in some form early on. AA and HW already get this. Rogue mechanic can get close-ish. Having massive stacks of crossbow bolts in Inquisitive and Battle Engineer is not the same.

The only reason to carry ammo, IMO, is DR breaking, and even then it is generally simpler to power thru than try to always keep the right ammo at the ready (universal 100% returning would change that, slightly) Note: BE CAN do this thru various weapon spells, but they take a damage hit, losing either Deadly Weapons or greater elemental weapons in the process.

 

[Nebless]

- remove ammo drops from chest loot entirely

I wouldn't. Getting them to sell as 'junk' is a good way for new / low level characters to build up some coin.

Instead I'd say have the Korthos vendor start selling quivers as an eye to helping new character inventory management.

 

[Xgya]

I've already said something like this.
I wouldn't be opposed to making ammo an actual piece of equipment found on loot, but make all ammo that drops henceforth 100% returning and non-stacking, just like throwing returning weapons.
It gives room to create unique ammo, since you can now have arrows drop as unique loot and not feel bad about them running out and always needing more.

Then make all crafted arrows 100% returning too. You just need to craft/loot/find one such arrow, much like you need to find one weapon.
Finally, make those arrows subject to weapon damage the same way all weapons are, so, much like melees, you need to carry backup weapons.

No returning "shards". That property is given, 100% for free, on throwing weapons. You shouldn't need to waste crafting slots on that property.
Still, I'd make non-unique arrows accept a single prefix. It's already a buff to ranged combat, no need to go overboard.

 

[Natashaelle]

Say it with me folks: Ammo bonuses do not stack with the weapon firing them.

If there were a specific and separate "ammo" (rather than "enhancement") bonus then it would.

In AD&D 1E and 2E bow and crossbow +x did stack with ammo +y ; which was offset by not much in the way of stat bonuses with those weapons.

 

[CBDunk]

Consider the upcoming 'Ball of Yarn' dart... it is a piece of returning throwable ammo that provides TWO viable crowd control effects.

That will completely transform, currently all but non-existent, dart builds. Suddenly they are good for crowd control at level cap.

Now, imagine the same on an arrow, bolt, and/or other thrown weapons. How about ammo that splits apart, transforms into a swarm of bees, or explodes? Suddenly ranged builds have a viable AoE option (e.g. maybe 25% normal damage, but done in a burst around the target).

It would be easy to make ranged builds VASTLY more versatile by introducing a handful of special returning ammo types as quest, raid, or other rewards. Maybe introduce them as low level versions that can be upgraded so the options are available at more than just level cap.

 

[Natashaelle]

Thrown weapons and ammo are somewhat different to each other, despite some shared mechanics.

Also the fantasy tropes aren't quite the same -- thrown weapons that return to your hand are a lot more common in fantasy literature than arrows that slip back into your quiver, but instead running out of ammo is a common occurrence in these fantasy narratives, even in John Wick.

 

[Onyxia2016]

I can see crafted ammo with returning as an option but having it as part of RNG loot basically mean no one would ever put points in a tree to get returning ammo. That enhancement would become worthless.

 

[Xgya]

Thrown weapons and ammo are somewhat different to each other, despite some shared mechanics.

Also the fantasy tropes aren't quite the same -- thrown weapons that return to your hand are a lot more common in fantasy literature than arrows that slip back into your quiver, but instead running out of ammo is a common occurrence in these fantasy narratives, even in John Wick.

At this point, this is more about the rule of fun than anything else. Having to worry about ammo, and running out of that special ammo you actually like is simply not fun.

Plus, those fantasy tropes would make the weapon actually return to hand, not give you magical copies that fly out of your hand, which is what DDO gives us. (you can pepper a whole wall with embedded throwing daggers even though you only have one to throw)

I can see crafted ammo with returning as an option but having it as part of RNG loot basically mean no one would ever put points in a tree to get returning ammo. That enhancement would become worthless.

I agree. Just make those arrows better than their current propertyless selves, or just give them the usual +damage with weapon enhancement line all damage classes get.

 

[Smokewolf]

We need player crafted (spell effect or spell damage on-impact) ammo that is 100% returning. Otherwise, it's not worth the materials used to create it.

Such a capability would allow Archers to have specialized arrows for specific situations or mobs. Thus enabling ranged players to quickly adapt to the combat situation as it evolves.

-Smoke

 

[Smokewolf]

I can see crafted ammo with returning as an option but having it as part of RNG loot basically mean no one would ever put points in a tree to get returning ammo. That enhancement would become worthless.

But the enhancement-tree abilities that create arrows, are already worthless when Flame-Arrow scrolls can...

* Summon 500 arrows at a time.
* Fire damage stacks with weapon damage. Unlike an arrows "+" which only stacks if it's higher than the weapons enhancement bonus.
* Can persist within the TR cache for later use at level 1.

-Smoke

 

[CBDunk]

I can see crafted ammo with returning as an option but having it as part of RNG loot basically mean no one would ever put points in a tree to get returning ammo. That enhancement would become worthless.

Um... you do know that returning ammo as part of RNG loot already exists, right?

 

[droid327]

I wouldn't. Getting them to sell as 'junk' is a good way for new / low level characters to build up some coin.

Instead I'd say have the Korthos vendor start selling quivers as an eye to helping new character inventory management.

I mean new players are still a very minor fraction of the overall playerbase. I wouldnt preserve the inconvenience of ammo clutter just to help them out for the short time they're plat-limited...maybe just increase plat drops in low-level chests to compensate, and save them from having to store and sell it and clutter their inventory.

I've already said something like this.
I wouldn't be opposed to making ammo an actual piece of equipment found on loot, but make all ammo that drops henceforth 100% returning and non-stacking, just like throwing returning weapons.
It gives room to create unique ammo, since you can now have arrows drop as unique loot and not feel bad about them running out and always needing more.

Then make all crafted arrows 100% returning too. You just need to craft/loot/find one such arrow, much like you need to find one weapon.
Finally, make those arrows subject to weapon damage the same way all weapons are, so, much like melees, you need to carry backup weapons.

No returning "shards". That property is given, 100% for free, on throwing weapons. You shouldn't need to waste crafting slots on that property.
Still, I'd make non-unique arrows accept a single prefix. It's already a buff to ranged combat, no need to go overboard.

Going the named-ammo route is another option, but one I think makes the game more two-dimensional. Part of the reason why I suggested what I did is that crafted ammo creates a sustainable player-to-player economy, as opposed to just individual loot-chasing like we already do plenty of. That wouldn't really add anything new, just more to grind.

Thats also why crafted ammo would cap at 99% returning, so that you never get "forever" ammo and there's always demand for more crafting. Also, the "slot" for returning would only be for returning shards, so there's no tradeoff - only higher returning values, from more skilled crafters. Like you said, there's only one slot for a functional affix on ammo, it only does one thing...but a stack of 1000 99% returning would give you 100,000 shots (on average) of doing that thing, which is enough to cover you for a lot of questing before you need to go back to the AH and buy a few more stacks from a crafter.

 

[droid327]

We need player crafted (spell effect or spell damage on-impact) ammo that is 100% returning. Otherwise, it's not worth the materials used to create it.

Such a capability would allow Archers to have specialized arrows for specific situations or mobs. Thus enabling ranged players to quickly adapt to the combat situation as it evolves.

-Smoke

Again, 100% returning makes it one-and-done forever, that doesnt create ongoing incentive to engage the system. 99% returning preserves ongoing incentive, without being so onerous that it becomes a time-tax on ranged characters.

100% also totally devalues Fletching enhancements, while 99% makes them super valuable (1000 bolts @ 99% is worth 100,000 shots...1000 @ 99% with 80% fletching makes them worth 500,000 shots)

As an Inquisitive, I'd run through a stack of 1000 summoned bolts every 2 quests or so. So 100,000 shots would be enough for ~200 quests, so you'd only have to replenish your stack once every life or so. I think that's a good compromise of permanence.

 

[Onyxia2016]

Um... you do know that returning ammo as part of RNG loot already exists, right?

Yes, fully aware but not all ammo in the game, like previously suggested is 100% returning.
This , to my point would eliminate the need for any enchantment that provides any level of returning.

The two examples you linked are not RNG loot. They are items that have a very specific conjurer ability unique to them, namely The Hallowed Splinters and Void, the Endless Cold neither of witch are RNG generated loot and therefor not really part of the ammo overhaul discussion.
There are also other "named" items (darts, throwing daggers, etc...) that also carry the returning moniker. Again these are unique items and not part of the normal common or RNG generated ammo.

 

[CBDunk]

The two examples you linked are not RNG loot.

Ah, you are defining 'RNG loot' differently than I was.

A random number generator ('RNG') is definitely involved in whether those two examples appear in any given raid chest and thus I consider them 'RNG loot'. From context, you are apparently limiting that term to non-named items that appear in various chests when so determined by a random number generator.

That semantic issue aside... I agree that permanent 100% returning ammunition, however it were acquired, would remove any use of temporarily summoned ammunition... whether returning or not. For example, it is very common for people to take AP options that create stacks of arrows / bolts until they get up to the level where they can switch to summoning the single 100% returning arrow / bolt currently in the game, and then re-specing to get those APs back. Existing options to increase rate of ammo retention are all but unused... and I don't see that changing w/o massive shifts in the game item economy.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Again, whatever you call it... it already exists at late levels. Unless those options are REMOVED any and all less than 100% returning ammunition and/or retention options WILL be ignored. Why spend crafting time / platinum / AP or ANYTHING else to have ammunition that could potentially run out if you don't keep an eye on it... when you can instead use infinite ammunition for 'free' (once you have acquired it)?

 

[Ahpuch]

I don't know how much I would be enthused with any ammo changes if it doesn't also include some quiver and ammo loading improvements.

The process of needing to pull ammo out of quivers into inventory so they can be put on a hot bar where they can be efficiently selected when needed and then have to deal with the stack size of 100 (for arrows) requiring 10 slots to have enough for a quest even though they actually stacked to 3000 or more in the quiver and then having to hit that hot bar button after every 100 arrows otherwise it will pull the top arrow from the quiver instead of more of the specific arrow that you have in 9 more slots in your inventory and you were just using makes the whole thing even more tedious than this sentence.

Some minor gains to damage would not be enough to overcome that. The extra damage one can get for swapping to a DR busting arrow is rarely enough incentive to deal with ammo out side of conjure and forget it. If the damage gains were were more significant than "minor" then that would be a big boost to the ranged character power and I can't see SSG thinking that is a good idea.

IOW fix quivers and then we can talk. Though I guess 100% returning and/or much larger stack size so that quivers can be ignored might also be considered a "fix"