Ammo Overhaul

[droid327]

I think ranged weapon ammo is low hanging fruit in a lot of ways, and properly reimagined could add some fun new gameplay to ranged builds, improve QOL by reducing inventory waste and chest loot clutter, and create crafting economies, without inflating power creep substantially. Here's what I would suggest:

- remove ammo drops from chest loot entirely
- make basic +0 100% returning ammo available from somewhere for plat, as a basic fallback option
- flame arrow summons a 100% returning flame arrow that does fire damage, scaling with caster level on the same curve as fire damage affix on weapons/rubies
- summon arrow/bolts summon 100% returning ammo, and the scaling bonus to Enchantment becomes a similarly scaling Competence bonus to Ranged Hit and Damage, a la the Marksmanship affix
- crafted ammo now follows Cannith crafting formulas, with mlvl shards, a functional affix shard, a returning shard, and a bonus shard.
- Crafted ammo functional shard recipes added/updated to modern relevant numbers. Typed damage on hit, scaling as per Flame Arrow above. Material and alignment affixes. Proc-chance CC effects possibly including web, flesh to stone, blind, entangle, etc., with DC = 3*mlvl. More exotic effects like EBT, confuse, vuln, etc. could be possible using rarer ingredients and/or locked to higher mlvls. (Could get really creative here too if you wanted...chance on hit to cast CLW Mass around target at clvl=mlvl, chance to proc an additional attack against a nearby enemy a la scattershot, chance to add a stack of some kind of buff that decays stackwise, etc.) Typed bane/slayer ammo with damage and DC scaling as above.
- returning shards start at 80% and scale up to 90, 92, 94, 96, 98, 99%, with the latter being at or near max crafter level. No 100% returning for crafted ammo. Crafts in stacks of 1000. The goal is to make stack size sustainable for regular play (100k shots at 99%) but still require you to purchase refills from crafters and/or craft your own. Also reward investment in crafting level with more valuable products.
- bonus shard requires purified dragonshards, doubles your on-hit damage effects and/or improves your DCs from 3 * mlvl to 4 *

 

[Mindos]

* Can persist within the TR cache for later use at level 1.

Shhhhh. Also, I've sometimes noticed it just staying equppied in the ammo slot during a TR. /shrug

 

[kmoustakas]

I think ranged weapon ammo is low hanging fruit in a lot of ways, and properly reimagined could add some fun new gameplay to ranged builds, improve QOL by reducing inventory waste and chest loot clutter, and create crafting economies, without inflating power creep substantially. Here's what I would suggest:

- remove ammo drops from chest loot entirely
- make basic +0 100% returning ammo available from somewhere for plat, as a basic fallback option
- flame arrow summons a 100% returning flame arrow that does fire damage, scaling with caster level on the same curve as fire damage affix on weapons/rubies
- summon arrow/bolts summon 100% returning ammo, and the scaling bonus to Enchantment becomes a similarly scaling Competence bonus to Ranged Hit and Damage, a la the Marksmanship affix
- crafted ammo now follows Cannith crafting formulas, with mlvl shards, a functional affix shard, a returning shard, and a bonus shard.
- Crafted ammo functional shard recipes added/updated to modern relevant numbers. Typed damage on hit, scaling as per Flame Arrow above. Material and alignment affixes. Proc-chance CC effects possibly including web, flesh to stone, blind, entangle, etc., with DC = 3*mlvl. More exotic effects like EBT, confuse, vuln, etc. could be possible using rarer ingredients and/or locked to higher mlvls. (Could get really creative here too if you wanted...chance on hit to cast CLW Mass around target at clvl=mlvl, chance to proc an additional attack against a nearby enemy a la scattershot, chance to add a stack of some kind of buff that decays stackwise, etc.) Typed bane/slayer ammo with damage and DC scaling as above.
- returning shards start at 80% and scale up to 90, 92, 94, 96, 98, 99%, with the latter being at or near max crafter level. No 100% returning for crafted ammo. Crafts in stacks of 1000. The goal is to make stack size sustainable for regular play (100k shots at 99%) but still require you to purchase refills from crafters and/or craft your own. Also reward investment in crafting level with more valuable products.
- bonus shard requires purified dragonshards, doubles your on-hit damage effects and/or improves your DCs from 3 * mlvl to 4 *

I'd keep arrows and bolts. I'd remove non returning throwing weapons, those are really useless and I'd remove healing/repair kits as well! On bolt toons, since their ammo is not 100% returning, random bolts get used as a warning when auto equiped that you are out of bolts and gotta make some.

 

[Smokewolf]

Um... you do know that returning ammo as part of RNG loot already exists, right?

At level 29... load of good that does for 80% of the games content that comes prior to 29.

 

[Smokewolf]

Again, 100% returning makes it one-and-done forever, that doesnt create ongoing incentive to engage the system. 99% returning preserves ongoing incentive, without being so onerous that it becomes a time-tax on ranged characters.

100% also totally devalues Fletching enhancements, while 99% makes them super valuable (1000 bolts @ 99% is worth 100,000 shots...1000 @ 99% with 80% fletching makes them worth 500,000 shots)

As an Inquisitive, I'd run through a stack of 1000 summoned bolts every 2 quests or so. So 100,000 shots would be enough for ~200 quests, so you'd only have to replenish your stack once every life or so. I think that's a good compromise of permanence.

In a single game session as an Archer, I'd blow through 3-8k arrows. That 99% returning arrow is good for a few hundred shots at best and then what. Farm up all the mats to make a replacement, or hope to God another drops within that character life-time?

What players really need is something that takes the tedium out of ranged play, and the accompanying inventory mess that results from carrying 1000 arrows or more. Something thats usable at level "1" and can be upgraded or crafted to expand and enhance game play, as the character levels. while using the pre-existing crafting system playes have already invested into.

-Smoke

 

[droid327]

In a single game session as an Archer, I'd blow through 3-8k arrows. That 99% returning arrow is good for a few hundred shots at best and then what. Farm up all the mats to make a replacement, or hope to God another drops within that character life-time?

What players really need is something that takes the tedium out of ranged play, and the accompanying inventory mess that results from carrying 1000 arrows or more. Something thats usable at level "1" and can be upgraded or crafted to expand and enhance game play, as the character levels. while using the pre-existing crafting system playes have already invested into.

-Smoke

A hundred thousand shots. So even at 8k per day, one stack lasts you a month or so. And you can buy multiple stacks at once, keep one in your quiver. And then yes, craft more, or buy more, or just use a 100% basic arrow if you want to opt out of consumable ammo

No to forever-gear though. The devs have made that very clear.

 

[Smokewolf]

Shroud gear for many is forever gear, that's been player crafted. It just uses a very old & archaic crafting system that most everyone hates.

 

[Xgya]

I don't see why ammo couldn't just be semi-unlimited use, given that throwing weapons are already "forever gear" and work just fine.

If you absolutely insist on having people run out of ammo as part of your fantasy trope, just make the arrows take equipment damage like melee weapons do. Now, sometimes, when you're about to shoot something, you suddenly need to scramble around for a backup option (or be left without a backup option altogether - RUN!)

The developers are already okay with making the option available at high levels of play.
I agree, it doesn't exactly make the current enhancements that grant unlimited ammo shine, but, again, the devs have already shown us they're okay with this in at least some form.

The more complex ask would be a quiver rework and that actually put that function into the quivers instead. Quivers no longer store actual arrows, but they're all quivers that magically reproduce magically enhanced arrows.
You get to say those things eventually run out, at which point you have to run to the enchanter to fix them (I.e: click the "repair" button)
Under that new paradigm, you can no longer equip bolts/arrows. You equip a quiver that creates those.
The Arrows-B-Gone Update!

 

[Altra]

The more complex ask would be a quiver rework and that actually put that function into the quivers instead. Quivers no longer store actual arrows, but they're all quivers that magically reproduce magically enhanced arrows.
You get to say those things eventually run out, at which point you have to run to the enchanter to fix them (I.e: click the "repair" button)
Under that new paradigm, you can no longer equip bolts/arrows. You equip a quiver that creates those.
The Arrows-B-Gone Update!

Yes, please.

 

[Nebless]

I mean new players are still a very minor fraction of the overall playerbase. I wouldnt preserve the inconvenience of ammo clutter just to help them out for the short time they're plat-limited...maybe just increase plat drops in low-level chests to compensate, and save them from having to store and sell it and clutter their inventory.

That's why I said new AND low level players as you seem to be forgetting about all the Hardcore servers they've done / will do since when those run we're all 'NEW players' that could use the coin.

 

[l_remmie]

In BG2 you had all ammo types unlimited quivers and multiple ranged weapons that dont need ammo. The ammo was just basic though. You could always slot better ammo instead and that would be used until it ran dry.

The same should be true in DDO.

Unlimited basic ammo quiver should be lvl1 and given by jeets.

Unlimited quivers of 1d6elemental and material types should be given as favor rewards. Silver flame gives good, cannith gives adamantine and gatekeepers give silver/cold iron etcetera. Nothing fancy.

Wanna use fancy Abbott quiver, gotto buy/make some actual arrows.

Wanna use better arrows craft/buy them.
Up to 5d6 at appropriate lvls for an appropriate cost.
All basic arrows should be removed from the drop table.
Add a few really good arrows like small stacks of 10d6 elemental
Small stacks of high dc slayer arrows.
Other fancy unique ammo

Finally give classes returning ammo in trees but max 75% that gives you 4x the fancy arrows.

 

[droid327]

That's why I said new AND low level players as you seem to be forgetting about all the Hardcore servers they've done / will do since when those run we're all 'NEW players' that could use the coin.

This is an important distinction to make

Hardcore server is not full of "new" players. Its full of very experienced players, playing fresh characters.

So while yes, HC players have more use for plat early on...they also know exactly how to get it and what to spend it on, and they'd know how to get it even if ammo no longer drops in chests.

Plus, like the post you quoted says, just raise the amount of raw coins that drop in chests, rather than dropping ammo whose only realistic purpose is to be sold for coins

 

[HoopleHead]

I never understood the point of arrows & bows having their own enchants that don't stack, best gets priority. I always figured Bow should be enchant applied 'to-hit' and arrow/bolt applied 'to-damage'

 

[Mindos]

quivers that magically reproduce magically enhanced arrows.
You get to say those things eventually run out, at which point you have to run to the enchanter to fix them (I.e: click the "repair" button)
Under that new paradigm, you can no longer equip bolts/arrows. You equip a quiver that creates those.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Quivering_Quiver

Sort of like that, but different?

 

[Xgya]

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Quivering_Quiver

Sort of like that, but different?

I'd imagine under my idea this particular Quiver would now randomly shoot one of those random arrows it could originally generate instead of generating them for potential later use.
So every time you tried shooting an arrow with this particular quiver equipped, you'd randomly get arrows of various alignments, metals, elemental types. You wouldn't know where the arrows came from. There certainly weren't any arrows in there last you checked. But as soon as you pulled your bow out and tried nocking an arrow, there it was, that +3 Corrosive Arrow, ready to be shot.

 

[Anurakh]

I just want to be able to select ammo within the quiver in combat. Quivers should have worked like this from the beginning! What good is a quiver that doesn't allow you to use its ammo when you need it?

Let me put the ammo inside the quiver on the hotbar, and use it in combat.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Yeah 100% returning ammo should drop both as RNG items and as named items. Just delete the related enhancements.

More advanced mechanics can include allow for instantly swapping between arrows in the quiver while adding a "loading time" for putting arrows in the quiver. That retains the purpose of the quiver and can potentially add interesting choices during combat.

 

[Misadventure]

I'm already sick and tired of running out of bolts in quest.

 

[Archest]

I think banishing arrow should be effected by the characters abjuration bonus - dc ability not enchantment as it currently is.
had this discussion that its a enchantment on the arrow and not an actual spell but utilizing this shot requires another spell school to increase the dc and make the arrow effectively work after already taking abjuration to effect the actual spell. else the SLA is useless unless your schooled in enchantment as your DC will not be effective enough for the arrow.