Archmage is finally starting to get nice...

[Xezon]

I've done a Force only evocation AM before. After the reduction in MM cost, it definitely feels better than it did. It was more of a thematic character than a power house, but it's still decent. Being able to now use multile copies of Chain Missiles, Meta-Magiced Force Missiles, and two copies of Cyclonic blast without sucking your meager SP pool down too fast goes a long way. Splash Feydark for more Force crit and spell power (and the ever powerful Color Spray SLA)

I will say that, while force spells def need a refresh to be more like modern spells (their lack of late game scaling hurts since they are limited by missile capacity not just caster level), it's not the only thing AM can do. Especially now that the Efficient metamagic point are reasonably priced now. Wizards make excellent DC casters that sorcerers just can't compete with. this brings us back to the age old "CC vs Burst damage" argument.

When burst is able to one shot everything in a group with a single spell, why bother with CC?

 

[Lazuli]

In my half-asleep stupor, I had forgotten that potency items do in fact exist. The "50%" part was just me throwing a number off the top of my head. However, the amount of spellpower you receive from items does not equal the amount you output when you can get spellpower from enhancements. 50% spellpower from one item does not mean 50% end damage. If the number needs to be higher, the devs have the information to figure out exact values. I think the Archmage tree also needs more spellpower.

Let's see, you don't understand. An item that has much less value is in addition to the sorc enhancements giving more spellpower, more caster level (and max CL), and more lore than wizard enhancements, and that feats and EDs are designed for specialists. The sorc is always going to have more damage than the wizard, that doesn't matter to me. That's not what I'm discussing.

What I dispute is that the difference is so massive. And this is because the equipment is massively aimed at specialists. It can't be that the devs say that wizads don't need a bypass because they have a lot of variety of spells at their disposal (I don't want the bypass either, mind you), but then design equipment that doesn't allow that versatility. Parity in equipment opportunities is what I ask for. Not the hypocrisy of saying "you don't need bypass because you should be versatile but I don't allow you to be versatile either."

I would still like to see potency and spell lore on quarterstaffs. I do not think the numbers generalists achieve need to be identical to specialized numbers, as then playing a savant would be pointless. However, yes, whatever the actual numbers end up being, the damage needs to be at least close to what specialists do.

I see you don't play in the end game. It's not that the numbers are not identical, it's that the difference is MASSIVE. There may be a difference, what does not count is that it is so big.

A pointless savant? But don't you know that the sorc can be a better instantkiller than the wizard? I repeat, having more spells at his disposal means very little in the wizard's favor. Nowadays the sorc has the same buffs, has the same CC and can have instantkills and more damage. A sorc built for instankills is actually better than the wizard thanks to its higher casting speed.

Sorcs are not the poor children of this story precisely lol. The wizard has an edge in the DC and could help a new player (although honestly better to have damage than instantkills if your DC is bad), but as soon as we talk about more developed characters, the story changes completely, since the sorc reaches the DC as well.

A sorc deals damage with epic spells, which cost exactly the same resources to acquire as a wizard (the wizard does not have more epic spells than a sorc, the system is the same for both), and with high-level spells of his class. Since the sorc only needs one element, that leaves a lot of room for instantkills, CC, buffs and so on. This is not pnp, where a wizard can have a hundred spells at his disposal. In DDO there are very few viable spells that the wizard has in his spellbook, which makes having the sorc have fewer slots mean very little.

Additionally, the devs have decided to add spells that should be in the wizard's book, such as greater color spray, as external sources, so that the sorc can take them in addition to its limited slots. Cool, right?

I suppose when I mentioned vulnerabilities, I was also thinking about using elements that whatever enemies are not resistant to. I think it's a fun playstyle to choose appropriate elements based on the enemies being fought. Do sorcerers not have this problem? I have not played a sorcerer in a long time. I've only seen people mention immunity stripping, so I don't actually know how this works. If sorcerers can bypass immunities/resistances in most or all situations (not just occasionally), then I see where you're coming from in terms of damage needing to reach the same values. The concept of immunity stripping always seemed a bit silly to me, but I won't argue against if it's something that people like.

No, sorcs don't have that problem. Their bypass allows them to do full damage even to enemies that are healed by their element. And yes, it's silly, but this has been going on for a long time and I don't ask for its elimination. I'm not asking for a nerf to the sorc. I don't even ask for a bypass for the wizard.

What I ask is that the devs allow the equipment to make it possible to use all the wizard's spells. What's the point of being able to choose "now use acid against this enemy", if then your spellpower for that element is not competitive?

And yes, because I consider it fun to use a variety of spells depending on the circumstances, I am asking for this. If not, I would be asking for what most people do: either a bypass or a force specialist.

From what I see you don't play in the end game nor do you have any idea of the enormous difference between the damage of the specialist and the generalist. Well, I inform you that cutting the difference is not going to make the specialists useless, much less xD. In this game everything is designed for specialists.

 

[Lazuli]

I've done a Force only evocation AM before. After the reduction in MM cost, it definitely feels better than it did. It was more of a thematic character than a power house, but it's still decent. Being able to now use multile copies of Chain Missiles, Meta-Magiced Force Missiles, and two copies of Cyclonic blast without sucking your meager SP pool down too fast goes a long way. Splash Feydark for more Force crit and spell power (and the ever powerful Color Spray SLA)

Those spells don't do competitive damage in the end game.

Wizards make excellent DC casters that sorcerers just can't compete with. this brings us back to the age old "CC vs Burst damage" argument.

False. A sorc may actually be a better DC caster than a wizard, by virtue of its greater casting speed. A sorc easily reaches the DCs necessary for it, and has more than enough slots for instantkills, CC and damage.

When burst is able to one shot everything in a group with a single spell, why bother with CC?

Nobody annihilates a room with a spell when playing on high difficulty.

 

[droid327]

The "50%" part was just me throwing a number off the top of my head.

I would still like to see potency and spell lore on quarterstaffs. I do not think the numbers generalists achieve need to be identical to specialized numbers, as then playing a savant would be pointless. However, yes, whatever the actual numbers end up being, the damage needs to be at least close to what specialists do.

Yeah if it was 50% then it'd be totally unviable

I usually ballpark the very minimum you need to be a playable build as 80% of a specialist, at max investment for each

Potency gear is probably OK as-is by that metric, but the issue is more that there's not equivalent modern gear for Universal Lore, which you also need, and not enough USP in enhancements (outside AM) and Epic Destinies (its 5/5 in most places right now when it really should be 8/2)

I think the best and most easily implemented solution would be to give Archmage (T5) an ability that lets you use 80% of your Force Spellpower for Acid/Fire/Lightning/Cold spells, if its higher, and lets you use your highest single Spell Lore for all spells. That'd give Archmages the ability to specialize in Force damage gear- and enhancement-wise, and be able to cast all elements decently well - which would be inherently advantageous since you could double up on L9 nukes, etc. - but not step on the toes of specialist casters.

 

[Lazuli]

I think the best and most easily implemented solution would be to give Archmage (T5) an ability that lets you use 80% of your Force Spellpower for Acid/Fire/Lightning/Cold spells, if its higher, and lets you use your highest single Spell Lore for all spells. That'd give Archmages the ability to specialize in Force damage gear- and enhancement-wise, and be able to cast all elements decently well - which would be inherently advantageous since you could double up on L9 nukes, etc. - but not step on the toes of specialist casters.

Yup, this solution is very similar to one I said before. There are actually several ways to fix this. I would prefer a change in the gear's design paradigm, whose current philosophy I frankly detest, but I know that is unlikely. These devs seem incapable of designing for generalists. So a solution of this style is probably the only viable one.

 

[Sammy]

Let's see, you don't understand. An item that has much less value is in addition to the sorc enhancements giving more spellpower, more caster level (and max CL), and more lore than wizard enhancements, and that feats and EDs are designed for specialists. The sorc is always going to have more damage than the wizard, that doesn't matter to me. That's not what I'm discussing.

What I dispute is that the difference is so massive. And this is because the equipment is massively aimed at specialists. It can't be that the devs say that wizads don't need a bypass because they have a lot of variety of spells at their disposal (I don't want the bypass either, mind you), but then design equipment that doesn't allow that versatility. Parity in equipment opportunities is what I ask for. Not the hypocrisy of saying "you don't need bypass because you should be versatile but I don't allow you to be versatile either."



I see you don't play in the end game. It's not that the numbers are not identical, it's that the difference is MASSIVE. There may be a difference, what does not count is that it is so big.

A pointless savant? But don't you know that the sorc can be a better instantkiller than the wizard? I repeat, having more spells at his disposal means very little in the wizard's favor. Nowadays the sorc has the same buffs, has the same CC and can have instantkills and more damage. A sorc built for instankills is actually better than the wizard thanks to its higher casting speed.

Sorcs are not the poor children of this story precisely lol. The wizard has an edge in the DC and could help a new player (although honestly better to have damage than instantkills if your DC is bad), but as soon as we talk about more developed characters, the story changes completely, since the sorc reaches the DC as well.

A sorc deals damage with epic spells, which cost exactly the same resources to acquire as a wizard (the wizard does not have more epic spells than a sorc, the system is the same for both), and with high-level spells of his class. Since the sorc only needs one element, that leaves a lot of room for instantkills, CC, buffs and so on. This is not pnp, where a wizard can have a hundred spells at his disposal. In DDO there are very few viable spells that the wizard has in his spellbook, which makes having the sorc have fewer slots mean very little.

Additionally, the devs have decided to add spells that should be in the wizard's book, such as greater color spray, as external sources, so that the sorc can take them in addition to its limited slots. Cool, right?


No, sorcs don't have that problem. Their bypass allows them to do full damage even to enemies that are healed by their element. And yes, it's silly, but this has been going on for a long time and I don't ask for its elimination. I'm not asking for a nerf to the sorc. I don't even ask for a bypass for the wizard.

What I ask is that the devs allow the equipment to make it possible to use all the wizard's spells. What's the point of being able to choose "now use acid against this enemy", if then your spellpower for that element is not competitive?

And yes, because I consider it fun to use a variety of spells depending on the circumstances, I am asking for this. If not, I would be asking for what most people do: either a bypass or a force specialist.

From what I see you don't play in the end game nor do you have any idea of the enormous difference between the damage of the specialist and the generalist. Well, I inform you that cutting the difference is not going to make the generalists useless, much less xD. In this game everything is designed for specialists.

No... I'm not disagreeing that wizards need to have more damage and should be closer to sorcs. The difference is massive, I agree. I'm advocating to make wizards better and specifically make gear for them better, the same as you. I made the mistake of using numbers when I should not have.

I realize the way I worded my messages made it sound like I was saying wizards should be dealing half the damage of sorcerers, but that is not at all the case. My intention was the opposite. I should not have used numbers at random. I was only trying to say that wizards should deal almost as much damage with every element as sorcs do with their specialized elements.

Whatever it takes for gear to support a wizard's full spellbook, the devs should do something to achieve this. I believe the devs can figure out the numbers if they made an attempt to close the gap. As it has been so far, it seems they have not had the intention make this kind of gear for wizards and so they have been left behind. I hope that they will make better gear in the future. In the end, I do not care what the specific solution is as long as it works. That's all I am saying and I do not seem to be good at getting my point across.

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The point I was trying to make about savants was not that sorcerers are pointless or that wizards should be far behind. What I was trying to say is that it makes sense for sorcerers to have a slight edge with their one element. That's it.

My thought process was that if wizards could deal exactly as much damage with every element as sorcerers do with their one specialized element, then it would make savants redundant - as they would be like wizards, but with only one element instead of all of them. Perhaps that is not the case when sorcerers can bypass immunity because that gives them a separate advantage, I don't know.

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The remark about me not playing endgame is objectively false, but I do not play arcane at endgame. I have not touched arcane classes besides attaining past lives and do not have much (recent) background with building for wiz/sorc. I was unaware that the sorcerer's bypass was so prevalent.

The argument could be made that wizards and sorcerers should be exactly equal in damage regardless the savant specializing and the wizard generalizing. I don't know the answer to this other than the wizard should, *at a minimum*, be close.

Regardless, the fact is that the gap should be closed and wizards need to be much closer to sorc than they are now. I will likely never main a sorc or a wizard, either. I would like to roll an Archmage as an alt and I would like to see their damage increased.

I'm just going to say I want to see more damage from wizard one way or another and leave it at that.

 

[DBZ]

Sorcs - Druids get MCLs in there trees and warlocks get crit multipliers huge differences there and Vuln stacking too

If pms had actual stripping they could do decent necro damage with Shadow DI but still wouldn't come close to the top 3

 

[Lazuli]

No... I'm not disagreeing that wizards need to have more damage and should be closer to sorcs. The difference is massive, I agree. I'm advocating to make wizards better and specifically make gear for them better, the same as you. I made the mistake of using numbers when I should not have.

Glad to agree!

I don't really ask for the wizard to do the same damage as the sorc. Sorc has many more advantages than simply the bypass. Allowing wizards to equip for their entire spellbook does not equal them in damage to sorcs: Sorcs have superior enhancements, better feats (they can dump everything into one element, a wizard cannot), better ED support, more spell points (important for a nuker) and faster casting times (which easily equals being able to have some 9th level spell more than the sorc).

The difference between the two classes is simply too big now, and the biggest culprit is the design of the equipment, followed by the design of the EDs, since magus of the eclipse was an epic fail for the wizard. Shortening that difference does not mean equalizing it, although I don't see how it could make the sorc useless either if it were equalized. Nowadays there are sorcs that are better instantkillers than many wizards. Should we remove the instantkills from the sorc so that they don't make the wizard useless? Or do we accept that the dynamics of playing both classes are different, and that there are people who like one or the other more, and that it is good to have both? Has the introduction of the alchemist, who is another superior nuker, made the sorc useless? Has upgrading the druid and taking him out of his uselessness to put him on par with the sorc made him useless or just increased the game's options?

We have to see things in perspective.

Even so, I don't ask for an equalization. Although it is extremely frustrating that every time devs create a new arcane spell they do not add it to the wizard's list, and instead they increasingly give more spells from external sources to the other classes, making the base versatility of the wizard class means less and less each time.

I realize the way I worded my messages made it sound like I was saying wizards should be dealing half the damage of sorcerers, but that is not at all the case. My intention was the opposite. I should not have used numbers at random. I was only trying to say that wizards should deal almost as much damage with every element as sorcs do with their specialized elements.

Whatever it takes for gear to support a wizard's full spellbook, the devs should do something to achieve this. I believe the devs can figure out the numbers if they made an attempt to close the gap. As it has been so far, it seems they have not had the intention make this kind of gear for wizards and so they have been left behind. I hope that they will make better gear in the future. In the end, I do not care what the specific solution is as long as it works. That's all I am saying and I do not seem to be good at getting my point across.

Yes, I misunderstood you. We think alike in this.

The point I was trying to make about savants was not that sorcerers are pointless or that wizards should be far behind. What I was trying to say is that it makes sense for sorcerers to have a slight edge with their one element. That's it.

My thought process was that if wizards could deal exactly as much damage with every element as sorcerers do with their one specialized element, then it would make savants redundant - as they would be like wizards, but with only one element instead of all of them. Perhaps that is not the case when sorcerers can bypass immunity

Bypass is far superior to versatility. When the sorc faces an immune enemy he breaks the immunity with a single spell, when the same thing happens to the wizard he is left unable to use the spells of that element, so he will have to deal damage with the others, which will have more cooldown than those of the sorc. A single element with bypass + faster casting is quite superior to versatility. The existence of bypass has really changed a lot in the dynamics of the game.

Additionally, there is the fact that when the sorc breaks immunity his spells take the additional damage from the ED mantle. When the wizard encounters an enemy immune to additional damage from his mantle, he loses that damage. EDs are designed for specialists. Even Magus of the eclipse is a specialist mantle, even though the ED seems superficially designed for the wizard.

I don't take the edge off the sorcs. I just want the equipment to be more fair instead of exclusively designed for specialists. And if, in addition, the devs remember from time to time that there are other casters in the game than the specialists when they design epic options like the EDs, it would be the heaven.

The remark about me not playing endgame is objectively false, but I do not play arcane at endgame. I have not touched arcane classes besides attaining past lives and do not have much (recent) background with building for wiz/sorc. I was unaware that the sorcerer's bypass was so prevalent.

My apologies if my comment sounded condescending, I didn't mean it. It seemed difficult to me that someone who played the end game had never seen how the specialist bypass works. Sorc, alch, druid... the bypass of all those classes work the same.

The first time you damage a resistant or immune enemy, you remove its resistance or immunity, and from then on you deal full damage with spells of that element. So as you see there is really no need to have spells with more elements, although force is usually a second element that specialists raise because there are spells that have a component reinforced by impulse, in addition to Ruin and Great ruin. But really there are two damage elements at most to equip, and have a decent but not maximized devotion. Comparing that to what the wizard would need if he wants to use his entire spellbook to bypass the immunities...

Regardless, the fact is that the gap should be closed and wizards need to be much closer to sorc than they are now. I will likely never main a sorc or a wizard, either. I would like to roll an Archmage as an alt and I would like to see their damage increased.

I'm just going to say I want to see more damage from wizard one way or another and leave it at that.

If you want to make an alt wizard, do it. The wizard is fun, and far from unplayable. It's not that he has zero dps, you can play him solo if you stay away from the trap of making him DC only. Of course, wizzie damage is significantly lower than other classes, so you have to play in a different way, and when equipping it it is quite frustrating. You are going to find immunities no matter what, so be careful with the element you chosse for your ED mantle and the spellpowers to which you direct the gear, because there will be elements that you will not want to use often (very low crit, spellpower significantly lower).

 

[Xezon]

Those spells don't do competitive damage in the end game.


False. A sorc may actually be a better DC caster than a wizard, by virtue of its greater casting speed. A sorc easily reaches the DCs necessary for it, and has more than enough slots for instantkills, CC and damage.


Nobody annihilates a room with a spell when playing on high difficulty.

I've played all kinds of spell casters through 34 LE content, including a Force dedicated AM and now a DC dedicated AM (thanks to this update). Anything over Elite is less of a matter of balance and more a matter of what is Meta. I don't think anyone will argue that Archmage Wizards are meta, even after this mini-update. I don't think that even with the OP's updated numbers would they be, but it would definitely help for damage wiz set ups.

As has been stated many many many times, the game is not intended to be balanced around Reaper difficulty, and even the shoddy Force spells are capable of doing enough damage to play through even the highest level of content on LE with some effort. Not everything needs to be super powered or even on the same plane when it comes to damage. In fact, I'd love if the game moved away from the idea that everything needs to be about damage and clear and returned to being about balanced parties and strategy, but that's a topic for another thread.

As I stated in my post, it's more of a thematic than a powerhouse. Again, force spells could definitely use updating to the current damage paradigm for spells.

These changes definitely made the wizard more viable as a caster by opening up the spell book as an option. Perhaps saying that Sorcs can't compete with was an overstatement. A more accurate statement would have been to say that Wizards can more reliably land DC spells with a single cast (due to their higher overall DC's than Sorcs), even if the number of them they can throw out in the same time is lower (due to slower CD's). DC Wizards definitely feel a lot better with this pass than they did before as Metamagic stacking isn't as AP intensive as was before.

Updating the Force SLA's numbers to be more fitting to the other spells in the game is a very simple way to help, and arcane supremacy being an active rather than randomly occuring buff gives more direct control for the style without changing much other than being more user friendly. I'm in no way saying that there isn't a "Bigger, Badder, Better" style of caster to play than AM. What I, and a lot of others are saying, is that these updates are excellent small scale changes that make the style more viable without completely altering the identity. Which seems to be the aim of such changes. I prefer changes that address issues without changing identity. Wizards, imo, should never have the damage capacity of Sorcs, and Sorcs should never have the utility capacity of Wizards. That's sort of the whole shtick of choosing between them.