DPS Formula?

[rabidfox]

You seem to think that the average player knows the attack rate of different weapons; they don't. Figuring it out yourself is a painstaking and annoying process for melee weapons. BAB also factors into it, so your results at level 1 will be far different than level 30.

Light vs heavy xbow/repeaters (and the point where the difference in reload speed between the two stops mattering), fire rune arm at 1 charge to take advantage of t4 machro damage or 5 charges for max multi-hits... A DPS meter would make some of those calculations way way easier to solve. With a meter I also could see where the numbers land in real world play vs theoretical maximums which may not happen short of the stars aligning.

 

[Teh_Troll]

I have watched this thread and hope at some point to drop this DPS calculation into the DDOBuilder V2.

What about "Damage per rotation" - would that be too much?

 

[mikarddo]

"DPS shaming" is a strawman. The combat log only captures your damage taken and inflicted today, so it's not like other people could parse your logs without you providing them.

We've asked for saving combat logs to a text file and/or dojo-like kobolds on guild ships for years, and got nothing but silence. I already know how to make optimal DPS builds because I've spent hundreds of hours doing the math and talking with other people who 'get it'. All status quo does is keep math-averse players (aka the majority) from improving because there's no easy-to-digest player feedback mechanism.

Back in 2015-16 there was a way to get your combat log to a text file but I doubt that is possible any longer.
Here is a part of a parse from a Shroud run.
That would be really nice to be able to do again.

 

[Bjond]

Nice table!

Might be interesting to toss out another table for ranged. IIRC, they're all different: throw (86/m), bow (70ish?), xbow, & repeaters (50 per count? 150? & 200? iirc). Enshrining it in the wiki would be nice, too, but I'd add a caveat about it not including doubles & off-hand attacks or we'll have posts whinging about THF & SWF having more total hits than TWF.

I don't consider shaming to be good in any context.

The problem I have with the "no shaming" mantra is that pointing out that your DPS is low or even VERY low is absolutely not shaming. It's just data. It's only shaming when you add ridicule. Saying Lizo is fat is not shaming. Piling on pejorative adjectives beyond that would be shaming. The truth only hurts when your armor is made of lies.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Nice table!

Might be interesting to toss out another table for ranged. IIRC, they're all different: throw (86/m), bow (70ish?), xbow, & repeaters (50 per count? 150? & 200? iirc). Enshrining it in the wiki would be nice, too, but I'd add a caveat about it not including doubles & off-hand attacks or we'll have posts whinging about THF & SWF having more total hits than TWF.



The problem I have with the "no shaming" mantra is that pointing out that your DPS is low or even VERY low is absolutely not shaming. It's just data. It's only shaming when you add ridicule. Saying Lizo is fat is not shaming. Piling on pejorative adjectives beyond that would be shaming. The truth only hurts when your armor is made of lies.

Completely disagree. You don't get to choose how your "help" is received. Calling a fat person fat, to use your unfortunate example, whilst factually accurate, is insensitive and superficial at the very least.

Please understand I'm not levelling this at you, as I have no reason to suspect your motive is anything other than honourable here, but there most certainly are folks in this game who will inadvertently insult others when imparting such help. And others who will regrettably abuse it.

Giving them ammunition to do so is an absolute non-starter IMO.

 

[Shear-buckler]

So others don't have to do the painstaking process, here's a handy chart:
(numbers in attacks per minute)

Attack speed​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​
Style​	BAB 25​	HB​	HB avg​	BAB 20​	HB​	HB avg​
TWF​	100​	132​	120​	98​	126​	116​
THF​	110​	135​	128​	104​	129​	121​
S&B​	104​	138​	128​	100​	132​	124​
unarmed​	113​	153​	140​	​	​	​
staff​	103​	129​	121​	​	​	​
15% staff​	116​	144​	134​	114​	135​	128​
Bear​	105​	144​	130​	104​	138​	128​
Wolf 20%​	129​	165​	152​	128​	165​	152​
Wolf 10%​	118​	150​	138​	116​	150​	138​
Wolf twitch​	152​	180​	172​	150​	180​	170​
SWF​	140​	174​	162​	138​	174​	160​

SWF is 40% faster than S&B?
I am not so sure about that one.

 

[Rub-A-Dub-Dub]

Enshrining it in the wiki would be nice, too, but I'd add a caveat about it not including doubles & off-hand attacks or we'll have posts whinging about THF & SWF having more total hits than TWF.

How would THF and SWF get more hits? Are you including doublestrikes? Using the table on page 2, the table has twf at 100 animations per minute as its base attack rate. Then consider 100% doublestrike that becomes 200 effective hits. Then the offhand gets added, if the build is at 100% offhand attack chance then that is another 100 hits. If using weapons with PTWF then that adds another 65 hits. Total of 365 effective hits.

 

[Ying]

Giving them ammunition to do so is an absolute non-starter IMO.

The combat channel only captures your character's data (heals, damage, and buff info). If that data were captured to a file and then shared, it's all opt-in. At that point the player is asking for feedback.

 

[Bjond]

Completely disagree. You don't get to choose how your "help" is received.

Exactly, this is why you should not lie, sugar-coat, or withhold feedback. Doing so is the epitome of rude condescension. Their reaction may be a problem, but it's their problem; don't steal it from them.

Context and respect matter. Obviously, walking up to a stranger and giving them un-asked-for potentially negative feedback is unbelievably rude, but when someone asks or context demands it, give them the respect that only honest clarity can give.

Yes, some people can and will use data to taunt and belittle others, but that is not a valid reason for withholding it from everyone. Keeping people in the dark is like only handing out participation rewards, which is disgusting behavior for anyone and everyone in any endeavor where performance matters.

How would THF and SWF get more hits?

They don't; that's a visual fallacy that someone might jump to if they don't know doubles & OH attacks are not included. Hence, why I think it important to put a footnote about OH & Doubles under the table.

 

[Maetrim of Cannith]

Having written thousands of lines of code for the initial DPS calculator, I recommend not including it directly into the DDO Builder. Rather, keep it a standalone program that uses a character build file as input. Creating a simulator is going to be tens of thousands of lines of code. Take a look at SimulationCraft to give you an idea of what you're about to do to yourself.

What about "Damage per rotation" - would that be too much?

My aim would be to present a series of numbers (e.g. basic DPS, Haste Boosted DPS etc) that would represent the estimated DPS score for the setup in the builder. As I have totals for all the breakdowns for the weapons like critical range/profile, damage, critical damage etc. All I really need is the number of attacks per round for various build types (in the table data provided in an earlier post). This if effect would jus drop out a single number that says: DPS Score: <value> which would be an estimate of the damage/min for the build. This would in effect be a new breakdown added at for that weapon.

 

[Ying]

Auto-attacking DPS isn't a good representation of a build's DPS. Chaining together attacks like Hunt's End + Sniper Shot for example will radically change DPS profiles, and is more representative of how builds do damage. Ultimately each build would have a "rotation" of abilities using active attacks. And coming up with those rotations and combining it with other cooldowns like Haste Boost and Reaper Boosts is a huge amount of work. You could eventually automate that to some degree, but it will require a huge number of simulations to understand how to prioritize those active attacks in an automated fashion.

 

[YeeboF]

That's absolutely not true in EQ2, which provides a group wide/raid wide log. This can be analyzed using ACT to "track an entire raid of combatants" and provide "overviews of data or all the way down to individual actions." This is regularly used exactly for the purpose of DPS Shaming.

Being able to do this for a competitive raid guild makes sense. It's how to identify weak links and either help them improve or, if they can't/won't, to replace them. Where it has gone wildly wrong in EQ2 is that people started using it in the same manner for PUGs. The result has been the almost complete death of PUGs.

I've never seen DPS logs not go off the rails in a MMO. DPS shaming is bad, but to me the worst of it is the completely irresponsible playstyles it encourages in PUGs.

Pulling sanely and safely doesn't help you get to the top of a damage meter. Just the opposite in fact. What helps you top a meter is spamming your hardest hitting AoEs before anyone else, and being the first one to tag every pack of mobs . . .even if there are multiple packs in the same area waiting to swarm you. Screw dicking around until the first pack is delt with, you will lose the meter race! What if some ******* kills one of the members of a pack before you get your damage in? You have to tag first and hit hard, risk of death or even a party wipe be damned.

Bonus points for blaming the healer when your squishy pure DPS spec pulls more than they can successfully facetank and dies horribly.

Not saying a typical PuG moves at a measured pace in DDO as it stands. But with everyone's e-peens at stake in a combat log it would be even worse (based on my experience in other MMOs).

 

[Oliphant]

Critics always think they're the lynchpin of art, writing, craft of all sorts, civilization even.

 

[Reifee - Orien]

DPS logs really only matter for large HP mobs, trash is immaterial.

In EQ the logging was excellent. For those that played it was key to help finding your problem areas. It also helps you refine certain players playstyles. For Us, if you wouldn't adjust and have somewhat compareable numbers you got benched. You knew who healed, how many times and what spells. You'd know what damage the tank took etc.

For DDO, it would be neat to have individual parcing. It would give you some good benchmarks on refining your dps. The only way seems to be currently on the Test server on the 1m hp mobs seeing how long it takes you to do 1m dmg.

 

[cursedblessedone]

 

[Nokowi]

DPS log would be a great VIP benefit. It would also be a nice way for developers to manage builds.