ED Paywall VS Universal Enhancement Paywall (Opinion)

[Xezon]

While this mini expansion is underwhelming for the price there is one thing that sticks out to me as being a little worrisome (other than the lack of value for the highest level of supporter pack).

Machrotechnic is gated behind an expansion paywall. Machrotechnic being the long awaited and promised Artificer oriented Epic Destiny. Assuming that the other two promised epic destinies (Warlock oriented and alchemist oriented) are coming down the road I have a concern that they will end up like this one. Epic Destinies are not something that is so important that it completely alters are character and makes them play completely different. Sure some gear might change but ED's do not fundamentally change a character in the way Universals can/do. Epic Destinies are supposed to amp up an existing characters playstle to a level that is, well, epic. Paywalling certain characters from their intended ED seems strange.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am perfectly fine with SSG making money and gating content. But that content has USUALLY been something that is character defining. In my opinion it is fine to have something like the Inquisitive, Feydark Illusionist, Falconer, etc. paywalled because they are completely new characters that offer new options from level 1 on. I would even argue that the Archtypes, which I love and have turned my main into one now, would be better paywall options because they're brand new playstyles/classes that effect build level 1 on.

I know that taking out the machrotechnic would diminish the already meager value of this expansion, but to me gating ED's is a poor choice now that they're available to everyone simply by virtue of being more impactful in gating certain characters for which they were intended than others who would just like to splash.

I've purchsed ever other expansion all the way back to MotU. This being the first one I declined. I have no problem paying for content so long as that content is of good value. Are epic destinies worth paying for? Sure. They were back before they became free for everyone and still are. Is a single Epic destiny worth purchasing an expansion that otherwise holds no value for me? Not even close. A universal like the inquisitive or the Feydark? Now it's a serious consideration because I can ground up make new character types.

Sure the ED will be available for sale apart form the expansion at a later time, as most things do, but it seems like poor value and an odd choice to make the "exclusive" content be an epic destiny.

Just my opinion. I know there are many who are okay with the content and run raids and that's good for them. For me, who doesn't raid, and has far more than enough content to easily level from 1 to max, a single artificer oriented epic destiny does not sell an expansion.

 

[haagmaar123]

It will eventually be buyable for ddo points so i dont see what the problem is you dont have to buy the expansion you just have to wait a while longer. Too many people are expecting everything for free and i know you arent saying that but i read all the time on these forums how everything costs too much this or that should be free etc how do you expect the game to stay alive and be developed. i mean people are complaining about this lastest expansion not being worth it even though it has as many or more quests than alot of the previous expansion.

 

[Ying]

There's no real difference between a Universal Tree and Epic Destiny tree being bundled with an expansion. New content ain't free; it's simple capitalism. Is it inconsistent to charge for new EDs after making them free? Sure is. But inconsistency is the only consistent thing about DDO.

The price for the standard and ultimate bundles have great value. The collector's edition is different story.

 

[Xezon]

It will eventually be buyable for ddo points so i dont see what the problem is you dont have to buy the expansion you just have to wait a while longer. Too many people are expecting everything for free and i know you arent saying that but i read all the time on these forums how everything costs too much this or that should be free etc how do you expect the game to stay alive and be developed. i mean people are complaining about this lastest expansion not being worth it even though it has as many or more quests than alot of the previous expansion.

Firstly, Nowhere did I say that I expect it to be free nor even insinuate it. In fact if you read my post, I reiterated that I'm aware it will be available for purchase separately and am fine with that. What I was saying is that it is an odd choice to me to initially gate an Epic Destiny behind an Expansion paywall. NOT that it's simply gated. Expansion gating a totally new playstyle such as Inquisitive or Feydark? Sure. An epic destiny? Weird choice.

Back when ALL ED's were expansion materials and you got every ED within the expansion? That made sense. You're not just getting a singular ED centered around one particular playstyle. You got them all. Giving you many options and a way to continue to grow ANY character with MEANINGFUL choices. You can't tell me that a single ED provides even close to the same level of options.


Secondly, The value of an expansion is more than just the number of things contained within. A few things:

1) The level range of the quests are all within an area where there are already a large number of quest options making it less impactful to have even more quests of that level to run. Level 18 and cap are not starving for quests by any means.

2) Having tested this on lamannia, as of RIGHT NOW, the pack is not worth it. With the U61 Loot, much of the gear is odd to try to fit into builds, doesn't really provide MEANINGFUL increases on currently available gear, and doesn't offer much in the way of new/interesting mechanics (Sentient Weapons, Bone Crafting, etc.)

3) See below for why it's my opinion that ED's are less valuable than Universals

There's no real difference between a Universal Tree and Epic Destiny tree being bundled with an expansion. New content ain't free; it's simple capitalism. Is it inconsistent to charge for new EDs after making them free? Sure is. But inconsistency is the only consistent thing about DDO.

The price for the standard and ultimate bundles have great value. The collector's edition is different story.

See my above post and re-read my OP. I have zero problem with SSG making money and have spent far more than I ought to on DDO. After over a decade of playing as a VIP and owning every expansion pre-release, if there is anyone who supports the idea that new content takes money, it's this guy.

The real difference is what it offered. Universal trees (barring Harper maybe) offer a completely new playstyle for characters to pick up starting at level 1 and continuing to cap. Epic Destinies are just extensions of an existing playstyle to enhance certain builds when they reach 20+. The epic destiny system as a whole is impactful and provides that level of diverse options. One single ED however does not.

Universals (done correctly) offer A LOT more diversity, splash options, and new build options. They potentially open up new builds that were not possible before. Even with the machrotechnic giving the ability to wield a rune arm, does that open up new builds? Maybe a weird Wizard that wants to try Rune Arm casting. Otherwise, not really. Maybe add a small amount of on hit damage to an existing build. Not exactly a build defining playstyle changer.

Are ED's and Universals both trees that you can take points in, yes? Are they of equal value? Not even close.

 

[Ying]

1) The level range of the quests are all within an area where there are already a large number of quest options making it less impactful to have even more quests of that level to run. Level 18 and cap are not starving for quests by any means.

Variety is the spice of life. Having the option of doing Vecna Unleashed instead of other content to wrap up a heroic life is welcomed. Also, the augments are great for epic leveling even if you don't use a single piece of heroic VU gear. And if you go with the Ultimate bundle, the hireling can trap well into epic levels for you.

You might have missed the announcement: The game is headed to level 40. So there needs to be more than adequate content for Legendary leveling. Every new quest/expansion that comes out is going to be Legendary content. And if you run Reapers for first time bonuses at level cap like many players do, VU is essentially another 120-150k first time Reaper XP per life.

2) Having tested this on lamannia, as of RIGHT NOW, the pack is not worth it.

Perhaps for you. The set bonuses are excellent. The heroic gear offers a bridge for many builds (like the new archetypes) that didn't have appropriate heroic Sharn sets. The Legendary gear will get used on live servers, and especially on hardcore. That new trinket is hot.

If you don't like the expansion, then vote with your wallet. I thought the Saltmarsh collector's and ultimate editions were terrible, so I opted for the standard bundle. If you don't think 13 quests, 1 raid, the gear/augments, and epic destiny aren't worth $20 then don't buy it. You can wait a year for it to go on sale for 25% off. Or wait two years for it to go on sale for 50% off during Black Friday.

 

[rabidfox]

I wouldn't be surpised if some new archetypes aren't given out for free at some point either down the line. I expect some will be done for free and some will be charged for.

 

[Bunker]

There are universal enhancement trees that are awarded to a character through favor reward system. Mind you, rewarded to a character, not account.

SSG could of easily done this for an Epic Destiny Tree.

Options to include:

1. Purchase as part of expansion
2. Purchase later in store
3. Achieve as a reward per player

3 Options, all reasonable and in line with past release of similar upgrades/products

 

[Wender]

Firstly, Nowhere did I say that I expect it to be free nor even insinuate it. In fact if you read my post, I reiterated that I'm aware it will be available for purchase separately and am fine with that. What I was saying is that it is an odd choice to me to initially gate an Epic Destiny behind an Expansion paywall. NOT that it's simply gated. Expansion gating a totally new playstyle such as Inquisitive or Feydark? Sure. An epic destiny? Weird choice.

Back when ALL ED's were expansion materials and you got every ED within the expansion? That made sense. You're not just getting a singular ED centered around one particular playstyle. You got them all. Giving you many options and a way to continue to grow ANY character with MEANINGFUL choices. You can't tell me that a single ED provides even close to the same level of options.


Secondly, The value of an expansion is more than just the number of things contained within. A few things:

1) The level range of the quests are all within an area where there are already a large number of quest options making it less impactful to have even more quests of that level to run. Level 18 and cap are not starving for quests by any means.

2) Having tested this on lamannia, as of RIGHT NOW, the pack is not worth it. With the U61 Loot, much of the gear is odd to try to fit into builds, doesn't really provide MEANINGFUL increases on currently available gear, and doesn't offer much in the way of new/interesting mechanics (Sentient Weapons, Bone Crafting, etc.)

3) See below for why it's my opinion that ED's are less valuable than Universals

See my above post and re-read my OP. I have zero problem with SSG making money and have spent far more than I ought to on DDO. After over a decade of playing as a VIP and owning every expansion pre-release, if there is anyone who supports the idea that new content takes money, it's this guy.

The real difference is what it offered. Universal trees (barring Harper maybe) offer a completely new playstyle for characters to pick up starting at level 1 and continuing to cap. Epic Destinies are just extensions of an existing playstyle to enhance certain builds when they reach 20+. The epic destiny system as a whole is impactful and provides that level of diverse options. One single ED however does not.

Universals (done correctly) offer A LOT more diversity, splash options, and new build options. They potentially open up new builds that were not possible before. Even with the machrotechnic giving the ability to wield a rune arm, does that open up new builds? Maybe a weird Wizard that wants to try Rune Arm casting. Otherwise, not really. Maybe add a small amount of on hit damage to an existing build. Not exactly a build defining playstyle changer.

Are ED's and Universals both trees that you can take points in, yes? Are they of equal value? Not even close.

I totally agree with you. As I said in another thread, nowadays expansions seem like adventure packs + universal tree/epic destiny bundles, instead of real expansions like MotU. As I see it, this is WAI to further milk VIP's money, because those "expansion" quests are not available for them.

 

[Xezon]

I wouldn't be surpised if some new archetypes aren't given out for free at some point either down the line. I expect some will be done for free and some will be charged for.

I wouldn't either and actually support that idea. It's sort of like the releasing of new classes. I was surprised that ANY were free to be completely honest because of how much of a hassle making new classes (even from existing ones) can be. If mini/full expansions were how you gained access to Archtypes (say a set of 3 like we've been seeing), I'd be buying each without doubt. ED's (especially singular ones) just simply don't hold the same level of excitement and opportunity.

Perhaps for you. The set bonuses are excellent. The heroic gear offers a bridge for many builds (like the new archetypes) that didn't have appropriate heroic Sharn sets. The Legendary gear will get used on live servers, and especially on hardcore. That new trinket is hot.

Yes for ME. Which is why I stated that "in my opinion" it's not worth. I didn't say it wasn't for anyone. Simply expressing why I'm not drawn to it and why what some consider to be value is not for me.

Another reason I said "right now it's not worth to me" is because maybe when the cap is eventually raised to 40 having those extra level 34's will be needed and worth. You're absolutely right. But I'm also not the kind to buy a surf board in the desert for the potentially distant day it becomes ocean front property even if I know "eventually" it's coming. As with all things in DDO, eventually can range anywhere from next patch to years away.

I totally agree with you. As I said in another thread, nowadays expansions seem like adventure packs + universal tree/epic destiny bundles, instead of real expansions like MotU. As I see it, this is WAI to further milk VIP's money, because those "expansion" quests are not available for them.

I'll agree to an extent with that. With the understanding that this is a "mini-expansion," I'd say that there does seem to be more of a focus on how to draw out more money from players rather than fixing the longstanding and long promised VIP changes, but that is a completely different discussion. Understanding that expansions fund expansions puts those of us who pay and love the game in a rough spot when an expansion comes out that just misses the mark.

 

[ACJ97F]

Considering the constant drip-feed of creep, locking minimal QOL behind "Ultimate" fluff bundles, and rehashing old plots, we're not really
shocked that sales are dropping. DDO had a good run until Dec 1st, 2020 at 9:27pm.

------------------------------------------------
Just for laughs (Daily ActivePlayer 2023):
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 10,116
World of Warcraft: 385,000 (low) 853,000 (high)
BG3: 844,804 (up from 626,085 this month already)

 

[Genkiba]

Considering the constant drip-feed of creep, locking minimal QOL behind "Ultimate" fluff bundles, and rehashing old plots, we're not really
shocked that sales are dropping.* DDO had a good run until Dec 1st, 2020 at 9:27pm.

------------------------------------------------
Just for laughs (Daily ActivePlayer 2023):
Dungeons & Dragons Online: 10,116
World of Warcraft: 385,000 (low) 853,000 (high)
BG3: 844,804 (up from 626,085 this month already)

*citation needed

Also for laughs.

WoW once had 12 million+ subscribers.

Their player base also cratered after the Blizzard scandal and the Great FFIV Migration began.

 

[owl]

It will definitely be purchasable for points and there are some positives. I see it as an improvement vs. old xpacs where the enhancement tree didn't come with the base edition, but was earnable with favor. This destiny is thrown in the with the base edition, meaning you will have access to it on live and hardcore immediately vs. having to earn it for favor on each server.

Some may not see this as a benefit, but I see it is a big plus for people buying the lower tier version.