Hypothetical Archmage Revamp

[DaWiner]

Archmage is far and away the worst tree in DDO, and desperately needs some love. So I decided to write up a hypothetical revamp of the Archmage tree. I take some time to discuss what is good and bad about the tree, and then below show the new tree that I came up with. I would love to hear your thoughts on it!

Pros:

• The broad idea is there, you pick a school or path of some sort and you gain abilities based on that path.
  • It is clear that the goal of the tree for DPS casters was to use multiple elements of spells, instead of just picking one like most other casters (sorc, alch, etc).
  • DC casting, well, you get DC's and some random SLA's. Since there is not much flavor here, it allows more freedom with my revamp.

Cons:

• It is supposed to be either a DC tree or a DPS tree, however does neither well.
  • The tree gives DCs, but gives next to nothing else for DC casters. The useful SLAs are sparse, and often behind different schools, meaning you have to take 4 useless SLAs to get one good one.
  • The DPS in the tree is terrible. Arcane bolt and blast did not get their damage increased when arcane spells got their scaling increased (which was many years ago at this point), and are worse than very low level spells like scorch. In addition, the critical chance in the tree is only 4% total, and spell power is found nearly nowhere.
• There are nearly no unique abilities that give the tree any appeal. The SLAs are all spells that wizards can just take with their many spell slots, and the tier 5's are not interesting at all. The only one that is somewhat interesting is arcane supremacy, however it does not do nearly enough to warrant taking this tree as your tier 5.

Needs:

• Interesting skills: Every core and every t5 (other than arcane supremacy) is either uninspired, bad, or both. There needs to be some flair added to make the tree more appealing
• Useful SLAs: Most of the SLAs suck. Make them better.
• More damage. For a tree that is supposed to also be able to deal some damage, there are 3 possible places to get spell power, and a critical line that only gives 4% crit chance. This does not come close to what is needed to compete with other trees.
  • On this point, if multiple spells elements are going to be used (which was at least the interpretation I got from this tree), this tree is going to have to heavily incentivize using multiple elements somehow. Using only one element makes gearing, feat, and epic destiny choices much easier. It will not be possible to match the spell power/damage of other builds if this tree uses numbers that are roughly equivalent to other caster trees. There needs to be some major reason to use multiple spell elements in this tree.

New Idea:

There will still be paths to choose from, however they are slightly more broad, and allow the tree to give useful abilities from multiple spell schools, instead of being so pigeonholed into only using one school. There are three paths in this revamp:

• Elementalist: DPS caster that uses elemental (fire, cold, electric, acid) spells
• Zephyr: DPS caster that uses force/untyped spells
• Spellweaver: DC caster that uses enchantment/illusion/transmutation/abjuration spells

Consolidating spellcasting this way allows for more diverse casting, which should allow for more entertaining gameplay.

With this intro done, here is my hypothetical archmage revamp (changes are in blue). Note that with some of the new skills, I have no idea how hard to code them would be, but I think the concepts are interesting, and at least on their face, realistic:

• Cores:
  1. Magical Initiate: For every action point you spend in this tree, you gain 1.5 universal spell power and 2 spell points.
  2. Choose your Path:
     
     • Elementalist: +3% critical multiplier to fire, cold, electric, and acid spells. Every core taken after this also grants +3% critical multiplier to fire, cold, electric, and acid spells.
     • Zephyr: +3% crit multiplier to force spells. Every core taken after this also grants +3% crit multiplier to force spells.
     • Spellweaver: For every 2 cores you take in this tree, all metamagic feats cost 1 less spell point.
  3. Choose One (SLA):
     
     • Lightning Bolt SLA (Requires Elementalist)
     • Chain Missiles SLA (Requires Zephyr)
     • Freedom of Movement SLA (Requires Spellweaver)
  4. Choose One (SLA):
     
     • Cone of Cold SLA (Requires Elementalist)
     • Force Missiles SLA (Requires Zephyr)
     • Phantasmal Killer SLA (Requires Spellweaver)
  5. Choose One:
     
     • Earth, Wind, and Fire: +2 caster level and max caster level with fire, cold, electric, and acid spells. Fire, cold, electric, and acid spells now use the higher of evocation and conjuration DCs (Requires Elementalist)
     • Meteoric Impact: Meteor swarm's fire damage is converted to untyped damage (and also has no save), and meteor swarm is now considered a magic missile spell for the purposes of this tree (Requires Zephyr)
     • Mystic Deterioration: When an enemy succeeds a fortitude, reflex, or will save, that save is reduced by 1. Stacks up to 3 times (Requires Spellweaver)
  6. Master of Magic: +4 int, +20 spellcraft
     
     • Harmony in Destruction: new SLA: Meteacidthunderberg: (combination of meteor swarm, acid well, thunderstroke, and iceberg). Deal 1d3+5 fire, cold, electric, and acid damage per caster level to enemies in an area, up to caster level 20. Passive: +10 fire, cold, lighting, and acid spell power (Requires Elementalist)
     • Dust to Dust: new SLA: Enhanced Disintegration: Deal 28-30 untyped damage per caster level, up to caster level 20. This spell passes through enemies (like lightning bolt). Passive: If you take the master of knowledge epic feat, both the disintegrate and enhanced disintegrate spells will give a stack of mental honing. (Requires Zephyr)
     • Mental Mastermind: new SLA: Cerebrum Shackles (SP: 50, Cooldown: 2 minutes). Choose a target. Every time the target attacks or casts a spell, it takes damage equal to .75% of its max health, and non-bosses are paralyzed for 2 seconds. No save. Duration: 1 minute, or until 7.5% of the target's max health is dealt by this ability. Passive: +1 to enchantment/illusion/transmutation/abjuration DCs (Requires Spellweaver)
• Tier 1:
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Choose One:
    
    • Acid Splash SLA (Requires Elementalist)
    • Magic Missile SLA (Requires Zephyr)
    • Color Spray SLA (Requires Spellweaver)
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Subtle Spellcasting: Your damaging spells generate 10%/20%/30% less hate than they normally would, making enemies less likely to attack you.
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Energy of the Scholar: Your studies have increased your maximum Spell Points by an additional 30/60/90.
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1) Spell Critical: Elemental and Force I: Your Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Force and Untyped damage spells have an additional 2% chance to critically hit.
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Wand and Scroll Mastery: +25%/+50%/+75% effectiveness from your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +1/+3/+6 to the save DC of your offensive wands. Taking Wand and Scroll Mastery in one enhancement tree will block its availability in other enhancement trees.
• Tier 2:
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 3, Requirement: Middle Efficient Metamagic) Efficient Metamagic: Choose one of the following Metamagic feats. Reduce the spell point cost of using that Metamagic. (Quicken, Empower, Maximize, Enlarge)
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 3) Efficient Metamagic: Choose one of the following Metamagic feats. Reduce the spell point cost of using that Metamagic. (Quicken, Empower, Maximize, Enlarge)
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 3, Requirement: Middle Efficient Metamagic) Efficient Metamagic: Choose one of the following Metamagic feats. Reduce the spell point cost of using that Metamagic. (Quicken, Empower, Maximize, Enlarge)
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1, Requires Previous Spell Critical) Spell Critical: Elemental and Force II: Your Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Force and Untyped damage spells have an additional 2% chance to critically hit.
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Traditionalist Caster: +3/+6/+10 Universal Spell Power when wielding an Orb or Staff. (Moved from Tier 1)
• Tier 3
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Choose One:
    
    • Scorch SLA (Requires Elementalist)
    • Arcane Bolt SLA (Requires Zephyr)
    • Slow SLA (Requires Spellweaver)
  • Empty
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Spell Penetration: +1 spell penetration per rank
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1, Requires Previous Spell Critical) Spell Critical: Elemental and Force III: Your Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Force and Untyped damage spells have an additional 2% chance to critically hit.
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1) Intelligence
• Tier 4
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) Diligent Studies: +3/6/10 universal spell power
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 3, Requirement: Middle t2 Efficient Metamagic) Efficient Heighten: -1 spell point cost per level heightened
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1) Arcane Understanding: Choose One
    
    • Elemental Prodigy: If fire, cold, electric, or acid damage you deal would heal an opponent, it instead deals no damage to that enemy (Requires Elementalist)
    • Forceful Reproach: Whenever you cast a magic missile spell, you also cast gust of wind at the targeted enemy. This ability has an internal cooldown of 15 seconds (Requires Zephyr)
    • Improved Wizardry: +1 Enchantment/Illusion/Transmutation/Abjuration DCs (Requires Spellweaver)
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1, Requires Previous Spell Critical) Spell Critical: Elemental and Force IV: Your Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Force and Untyped damage spells have an additional 2% chance to critically hit.
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1) Intelligence
• Tier 5
  • (AP: 1, Ranks: 3) SLA:
    
    • Primordial Punishment (SP: 45/35/25, Cooldown: 20/12/8 seconds). The chosen target takes 1d4+1 fire, cold, lightning, and acid damage per caster level every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Max caster level: 20 (Requires Elementalist)
    • Arcane Blast SLA (Requires Zephyr)
    • New SLA: Organic Scarecrow (SP: 50/40/30, Cooldown: 60/45/30 seconds). Choose a target. That enemy is confused, no save. The target takes -95% damage from all sources. Each enemy around the target must succeed a will save or immediately start attacking the target. (Uses max of enchantment/illusion/transmutation/abjuration DCs) Duration: 12 seconds (Requires Spellweaver)
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1) Arcane Enlightenment: Choose One:
    
    • Elemental Evangelion: Whenever you cast a fire, cold, electric, or acid spell, you gain the 'Elemental Aptitude' buff for that element: 'Your elemental spells deal an additional 1d3 (element) damage per caster level'. If you cast a spell of an element that you have an Elemental Aptitude buff for, all Elemental Aptitude buffs are removed. If you have all 4 Elemental Aptitude buffs, and cast a fire, cold, electric, or acid spell, the spell is considered an automatic critical, gains +35% critical multiplier, and all elemental aptitude buffs are removed (Requires Elementalist)
    • Strip Shields: Strip force and magic missile immunity upon dealing force damage. Magic missile spells gain +1 damage per missile (before scaling) per 5 wizard levels. Force missiles instead gains +2 damage per missile per 5 wizard levels. Magic missile spells also gain +1% crit chance per wizard level (Requires Zephyr)
    • Symbiotic Spellcasting: Your spell casts empower your future spell casts (Requires Spellweaver)
      
      • Any offensive illusion spell empowers your next offensive enchantment, transmutation, or abjuration spell with a 15% chance of casting phantasmal killer on affected enemies, in addition to the spell's original effects. Note that this chance is rolled separately on each enemy.
      • Any offensive enchantment spell empowers your next offensive illusion, transmutation, or abjuration spell with casting sleep on all affected enemies, in addition to the spell's original effects.
      • Any offensive transmutation spell empowers your next offensive illusion, enchantment, or abjuration spell with a 30% chance of casting flesh-to-stone on affected enemies, in addition to the spell's original effects. Note that this chance is rolled separately on each enemy.
      • Any offensive abjuration spell empowers your next offensive illusion, enchantment, or transmutation spell with casting break enchantment on all affected enemies, in addition to the spell's original effects.
  • Empty
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1, Requires Previous Spell Critical) Spell Critical: Elemental and Force V: Your Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, Force and Untyped damage spells have an additional 2% chance to critically hit.
  • (AP: 2, Ranks: 1) Magical Adept: +1 to all DCs

Additional Changes:

• Arcane Bolt now deals 1d6+3 damage per caster level, and no longer has a save
• Arcane Blast now deals 1d6+5 damage per caster level, and no longer has a save
• Force Missiles now has a maximum caster level of 20
• Bring about Destruction (draconic incarnation) also affects Primordial Punishment

Notes on Elemental Evangelion (Elementalist tier 5)

• Some spells deal damage with multiple elements. Those spells would only account for 1 element for this enhancement's purposes, however the element it could count for could be different.
  • E.g: Burning Blood. If you cast burning blood with no elemental aptitude buffs, you would gain the fire elemental aptitude buff. If you already had the fire elemental aptitude buff, you would gain the acid elemental aptitude buff. If you already had the fire and acid elemental aptitude buffs, you would lose all elemental aptitude buffs.

And that's about it! I'm curious to hear what people think about some of the ideas in here. Note that the numbers were not thought out too much, so the math may not be totally balanced. Some things (mainly the elementalist stuff) may be super overtuned, but the concepts are the more important thing here.

 

[seph1roth5]

Ummm a lot of good stuff in there but I don't think archmage HAS to be the tree of 50,000 multiselectors. I feel like they should scrap the whole thing and redo it, like when they went from magister to magus of the eclipse. I'm not a fan of metamagic cost reductions. Even if they weren't expensive in AP, it's a lot of wasted points when I can just drink a pot or rest. Now if it's one big reduction in t4 or t5 or a core or something, that's fine. But I don't want 15 points to save some SP here and there lol.

I like the idea of turning one element into another, having spells count as other spells such as MM, or adding on spells. Though gust of wind is a bad idea because it can be bad for you a lot of the time.

Maybe have a multiselector where you pick a spell like fireball or disintegrate or something, and have a small chance to cast it along with spells you cast, depending on spell level. Having their own metamagic where you choose fire/acid/cold/electricity (pick one) and when toggled on turns other elemental types into that would be neat too. A nice acid meteor swarm for golems.

 

[DBZ]

Does anyone even use Magus for anything lol

 

[DaWiner]

Though gust of wind is a bad idea because it can be bad for you a lot of the time.

Agreed. Just ran out of ideas. Worst case, if no other ideas, turn it into a toggle.

I'm not a fan of metamagic cost reductions. Even if they weren't expensive in AP, it's a lot of wasted points when I can just drink a pot or rest. Now if it's one big reduction in t4 or t5 or a core or something, that's fine. But I don't want 15 points to save some SP here and there lol.

That's fair, whether or not they are useful is up for debate. However if something like this tree were to be in the game, I imagine some form of metamagic cost reduction would be there, for consistency with other caster trees if nothing else. Also something else would have to go there in its place, and I was struggling for ideas already.

Ummm a lot of good stuff in there but I don't think archmage HAS to be the tree of 50,000 multiselectors. I feel like they should scrap the whole thing and redo it, like when they went from magister to magus of the eclipse.

This depends on what the purpose of the tree was supposed to be. Given that pale master is necromancy and EK is melee, along with what is already in archmage, it seems archmage was supposed to just be 'everything else'. I am assuming that the devs intended it to be an 'everything else' tree, and if so it's going to be difficult to make one tree that does all of that without a 'path' based/multiselector structure. Now, if this tree was to be redone, and not be an 'everything else' tree, then not having so many choices would be very realistic.

Maybe a better idea would be to split archmage into two separate trees, one with the DPS stuff and one with the DC stuff. But that would require even more work and enhancement design, so idk what's realistic.

Having their own metamagic where you choose fire/acid/cold/electricity (pick one) and when toggled on turns other elemental types into that would be neat too. A nice acid meteor swarm for golems.

The only problem I have with this is theme. If archmage is supposed to be a 'don't pick one element and use a bunch' tree, this would defeat that theme. But since there's next to nothing thematically in the tree other than 'caster not necro', maybe this could be done. Though in that case I imagine some of the elementalist stuff would have to be changed to fit that.

 

[Reilia]

I think lightning bolt at level 3 is a bit op. I would also like switching the 1.5 universal spell power per point spent to something in the cores like EK has. +10 universal sp per core. Also you would need to revamp the disintegrate spell to actually be useful too. I do like some of these ideas though. I think it's pretty crazy that you can never use this tree over pm if you want to play in higher difficulties. Not only do you lose out on damage but sorcs and pms get immunity bypass also. I also think it would be nice to put arcane blast and bolt as spells (in addition to SLAs). That would make going tier 5 in feydark much more appealing especially if you rework disentegrate.

 

[DaWiner]

I think lightning bolt at level 3 is a bit op

Luckily, lightning bolt is at core 3 (aka level 6). If it was at level 3 then that def would be OP.

I would also like switching the 1.5 universal spell power per point spent to something in the cores like EK has. +10 universal sp per core.

I initially had it that way, but I decided that having it this way allows people to spend more than 41 points in the tree and at least get a little damage out of it. Plus, the 1.5 sp/point is as much damage as 10sp/core if you spend 41 points (41*1.5=61.5, vs 10*6 cores=60). So if a wizard doesn't want to go PM, or doesn't have feydark, or whatever, they can spend more points here and get a little something for it.

Also you would need to revamp the disintegrate spell to actually be useful too.

I looked up the damage on ddowiki, and its 2d3+6 per caster level (avg 9/caster level), which when compared to other spells at its level (1d6+6, avg 9.5/caster level), it's actually pretty close (assuming the wiki values are correct). No one uses it, but I guess force not being supported in basically any tree is a big reason for it. Though it is a single target spell (vs the 1d6+6 for aoe spells), so maybe it does deserve at least a small damage bump (or allow it to pass through enemies like lightning bolt).

On second glance, it does have a fortitude save, and the zephyr path doesn't deal in saves... so maybe it will require more thinking than I first thought

 

[TeamScorpioRI]

I like this tree. Gives plenty of flexability while giving force casters some much needed "oomf". I especially like the meteor swarm changing to a force spell. Very cool. Hopefully SSG takes some of your suggestions.

 

[Smokewolf]

Does anyone even use Magus for anything lol

Archmage is really good for the cheap SLA's, Arcane Supremacy and force damage. Pair that with the ED Primal Avatar SLA's and you've an extremely effective AoE DPS'r. My current build hits for Acid, Force and Poison. While using Holds, Phantasm (SLA), Trap the Soul, and Flesh to Stone on single targets.

It being strong or weak is really figuring out how to use it collectively with the other abilities properly. For most this can be difficult, and thus I can understand why many dislike it. Then again, Mages are supposed to have a steep learning curve, and harder to play from the onset.

Now if I were to change anything from the original Archmage, it would be to add +1 spell penetration and +1 spell DC to the chosen school, for each core taken. While reducing the opposing school by an equal amount.

-Smoke

 

[DBZ]

I use fatesinger or EA as 3rd tree last time tested magus was pretty meh maybe your right

Also not using an over powered ice druid you know lol

 

[Reilia]

Ah yes, core 1 was unchanged. Maybe we should add something to core 1 to make it more equal to EK. Also disintegrate is a transmutation spell so your DC's are not that good as something you might want to specialize in like almost any other school besides abjuration. Also the damage is greatly reduced on a successful save (way more than half) so if you're not specifically targeting transmutation school you won't do any damage in higher difficulties. So maybe change the save damage to half or maybe add some more transmutation spells with saves to make the school more appealing.

 

[DaWiner]

Ah yes, core 1 was unchanged. Maybe we should add something to core 1 to make it more equal to EK.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, so what would you suggest?

Also disintegrate is a transmutation spell so your DC's are not that good as something you might want to specialize in like almost any other school besides abjuration. Also the damage is greatly reduced on a successful save (way more than half) so if you're not specifically targeting transmutation school you won't do any damage in higher difficulties. So maybe change the save damage to half or maybe add some more transmutation spells with saves to make the school more appealing.

You're right, disintegrate will require some sort of overhaul to put it in line with other spells. My first thought would be to change it to half damage on a save, and in the zephyr archmage capstone, remove the save altogether. As for damage, necrotic ray (also a level 6 spell), deals 1d6+12 per caster level to a living target. Since disintegrate can hit non-living targets, 1d6+9 per caster level would probably be fair. And maybe change it to an evocation spell, since most other transmutation spells do not do damage.

 

[Reilia]

EK gets it's eldritch strike in core one. Maybe we can come up with an SLA that would be unique to archmage and scale with level.

 

[DaWiner]

I don't know if that's realistically possible, or in the best interest of the tree (at least in the proposed form).

1) There's 3 different paths that you can follow in archmage. More importantly, 2 are DPS and 1 is CC. Having only one that is thematically accurate to all 3 paths and not uber busted or useless is nigh impossible.

2) If it is a damage spell (which is what I imagine you were suggesting), having a damage spell that is useful from 1-30, but not broken at any stage, is also not feasible, due to spells of a higher level having higher damage per caster level ( (1d6+spell level)*caster level ). Maybe you're saying that we actually change that scaling, and increase the damage per caster level as the player takes cores in the archmage tree. But I don't know how easy/hard that is to code. Maybe you could pull that off? But doing that would probably result in having to change all the cores to accompany this one SLA. It's an interesting idea, but would most likely require rewriting a significant portion of the archmage tree from what I have here (or having this one SLA be very out of place/ditched after level 5).

3) Sure, EK has this ability. But if you compare nearly any caster tree to the proposed archmage t1, the first core looks something like what's here. Pale master gives negative spellpower, universal spellpower, and negative heal amp per core taken. Angel of Vengeance is nearly identical to the proposed core 1 (1 universal spell power, 2 spell points per point spent). Hell, Bombardier, one of the best caster trees in the game, gives +2 MRR as its first core. The first core doesn't really have to blow you away, cause it's the first core. You're required to take it. The rest of the tree has to be worth investing in.

TLDR, interesting idea, but would be a different version of archmage, so in this iteration of archmage I don't think it's something to include. And most spellcaster trees currently in the game has something like this for their core 1.

 

[Reilia]

I had an idea about fixing Disintegrate. I thought about some trees that make the higher of two spell powers to work for two different elements. What if instead of having a second school with +1 DC you could have two schools share one DC. That way you could also maybe pair necromancy and abjuration, Evocation and transmutation. Those schools have so few spells that it probably won't be overpowered.

 

[DaWiner]

You could do this, however as it currently stands the zephyr path does not improve DCs at all (while the force spells are evocation, they don't actually have DCs associated with them). I think this is probably the biggest flaw of the tree as a whole, since all the force spells would be guaranteed damage (MM spells, meteor swarm, improved disintegrate all would have no saves). I had somewhat validated this in my head by saying 'well everyones gonna use shiradi with this so there's your randomized damage', but realistically that is probably not good enough. I don't want two paths to use transmutation DCs, and I feel that transmutation fits the spellweaver path better.

Though I could be convinced that swapping it over would be better. I also don't really have a better idea, so maybe moving zephyr over to a half DC-half force damage tree, and include some other 'turn stuff to frog or stone or whatever' type abilities would be interesting. I'd have to think on it some more.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Honestly I like the general Idea of this it and ssg could definetly take parts of it as inspiration but it defo needs some fine tuning

-Im sorta worrying about the capstone ability dealing 7.5% HP on a Mob Like LOB thats roughly 400k/min but Gruin is pretty Much 500/min soo uhh