Is trip/improved trip... useless...

[Drunken.dx]

just TR-ed out of PDK pure fighter, took all DC feats, build specifically to increase tactical feat DC-s, and while sunder worked great, I had more reliable tripping from heroic Cloak of Autumn, than trip feat...

Has anyone managed to make build that reliably trips mobs without heavy PL investment?
is it because mobs have insane reflex(trip) compared to fort saves(sunder)? My guess why Feat Wind through the trees is more reliable to trip because it's no save

My last experience tells me i won't build toon for tripping anytime soon (unlike sunder, sunder rocks)

 

[Desirdes]

just TR-ed out of PDK pure fighter, took all DC feats, build specifically to increase tactical feat DC-s, and while sunder worked great, I had more reliable tripping from heroic Cloak of Autumn, than trip feat...

Has anyone managed to make build that reliably trips mobs without heavy PL investment?
is it because mobs have insane reflex(trip) compared to fort saves(sunder)? My guess why Feat Wind through the trees is more reliable to trip because it's no save

My last experience tells me i won't build toon for tripping anytime soon (unlike sunder, sunder rocks)

Trip is actually a strength/dex save based on what is higher (also I mean total stat not the modifier), then it does a balance check every 2 seconds or so to get back up. Outside of things immune to trip I would assume it would be much easier to land trip than sunder with equal DC's at end game with early game potentially being the other way around with enemies having higher STR/DEX than their saves. Roughly what trip DC were you reaching if you remember it? Also since you mention PDK I have to ask if you were STR or CHA focused?

 

[Drunken.dx]

Trip is actually a strength/dex save based on what is higher (also I mean total stat not the modifier), then it does a balance check every 2 seconds or so to get back up. Outside of things immune to trip I would assume it would be much easier to land trip than sunder with equal DC's at end game with early game potentially being the other way around with enemies having higher STR/DEX than their saves. Roughly what trip DC were you reaching if you remember it? Also since you mention PDK I have to ask if you were STR or CHA focused?

STR PDK (over 80 STR, around~60 at lvl 20)
Don't remember exact save DC's, but I had all fighter only feats, trip/tactical DC gear, various enhancements to trip/tactical DC, and improved trip feat, and still got more reliable tripping from low level heroic cloak (which according to description has 5% chance to do no save trip) than when actively using trip feat

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

in reality, monster trip and player trip are different. i have tested them before, and the results are infuriating. for monsters, every single trip is a str/dex save thus it is impossible to save against. for players, all trips are a balance save, thus you need 150 DC at end game to even have a chance of landing. i have bug reported it and talked about it, but all anybody says is it works fine. it does not work fine. it doesnt really work, and trip is practically useless. do not build for trip, it is a trap. also thx ssg for making trip only useful for monsters, just like dispel magic

 

[Desirdes]

in reality, monster trip and player trip are different. i have tested them before, and the results are infuriating. for monsters, every single trip is a str/dex save thus it is impossible to save against. for players, all trips are a balance save, thus you need 150 DC at end game to even have a chance of landing. i have bug reported it and talked about it, but all anybody says is it works fine. it does not work fine. it doesnt really work, and trip is practically useless. do not build for trip, it is a trap. also thx ssg for making trip only useful for monsters, just like dispel magic

Hm I need to test this myself when I do my Dragonlord life next week. From memory, I was getting no-fail trips (other than immune enemies) with a dc around 116-126 or so when buffed up in low-mid reaper. When did you last test it? Curious if is an old issue that never got resolved, a newer issue, or an old issue when you tested but may have since been fixed. I could also simply have bad memory of of it thus me needing to do fresh testing soon.

 

[Desirdes]

STR PDK (over 80 STR, around~60 at lvl 20)
Don't remember exact save DC's, but I had all fighter only feats, trip/tactical DC gear, various enhancements to trip/tactical DC, and improved trip feat, and still got more reliable tripping from low level heroic cloak (which according to description has 5% chance to do no save trip) than when actively using trip feat

Ah did you use any trances? If not that extra bit of DC not being there might have been the issue. Trances are pretty much required to use tactics to my knowledge in harder content which sucks cause they are not fun to build around when they are not your main stat. Tbh I would rather trances be removed with enemies and their stats/saves taking another hit to balance it out. Unless they ever do that the new tactics strat will pretty much be taking Dragonlord levels for strength trance plus tactics bonuses.

 

[vik]

I'm not sure if this will help but my gold seal hirelings occasionally trip monsters running at cap R6-R7. Would that DC show up in the combat log? If it does I can post some results and start keeping track of what monster types they trip if you want.

EDIT: looks like Teal and the Scarecrow can both trip. But it doesn't show anything in the combat logs so not very helpful.

 

[Drunken.dx]

Ah did you use any trances? If not that extra bit of DC not being there might have been the issue. Trances are pretty much required to use tactics to my knowledge in harder content which sucks cause they are not fun to build around when they are not your main stat. Tbh I would rather trances be removed with enemies and their stats/saves taking another hit to balance it out. Unless they ever do that the new tactics strat will pretty much be taking Dragonlord levels for strength trance plus tactics bonuses.

I'm not talking about "harder content" I'm talking about heroic/epic elite content, And please note that I said that feat that has 5% chance of happening was more reliable than spamming trip attack, even if DC was low (not many options left for my build to increase it in heroic content, especially taking into account +20 DC from figter only feats) it would succeed at least as often as wind feat, which was not the case.


Also on part where player is subjected to trip, just ran HE just business and even with 51 STR (+20 to save) I had to roll 20 on trip saves in that quest to not get tripped.
that's heroic elite on STR build, so those trip DC are save only on 20 for anything other than min maxed STR/DEX builds

 

[The Blonde]

in reality, monster trip and player trip are different. i have tested them before, and the results are infuriating. for monsters, every single trip is a str/dex save thus it is impossible to save against. for players, all trips are a balance save, thus you need 150 DC at end game to even have a chance of landing. i have bug reported it and talked about it, but all anybody says is it works fine. it does not work fine. it doesnt really work, and trip is practically useless. do not build for trip, it is a trap. also thx ssg for making trip only useful for monsters, just like dispel magic

That's insane if true.

 

[saekee]

Well you could wear the Brutish Cuirass out of Blockade Buster. That trips foes on a vorpal attack. If you SWF it will happen quite often. Just kiss goodbye to your set bonus for armor—you would need to do Windlasher, maybe necklace/cloak.

 

[Sarandra]

Well you could wear the Brutish Cuirass out of Blockade Buster. That trips foes on a vorpal attack. If you SWF it will happen quite often. Just kiss goodbye to your set bonus for armor—you would need to do Windlasher, maybe necklace/cloak.

You could... and then 0.5 seconds later they stand up because their balance is through the roof. Trip just doesn't work in end game, except maybe from Adrenaline.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Well you could wear the Brutish Cuirass out of Blockade Buster. That trips foes on a vorpal attack. If you SWF it will happen quite often. Just kiss goodbye to your set bonus for armor—you would need to do Windlasher, maybe necklace/cloak.

Beyond the Soul of Tide from Perfect Pinnacle work well too.

 

[Mesmerin]

in reality, monster trip and player trip are different. i have tested them before, and the results are infuriating. for monsters, every single trip is a str/dex save thus it is impossible to save against. for players, all trips are a balance save, thus you need 150 DC at end game to even have a chance of landing. i have bug reported it and talked about it, but all anybody says is it works fine. it does not work fine. it doesnt really work, and trip is practically useless. do not build for trip, it is a trap. also thx ssg for making trip only useful for monsters, just like dispel magic

Dispel has it's niches. Dispel arrows are useful for caster type mobs who then just stand there recasting blur.

 

[saekee]

You could... and then 0.5 seconds later they stand up because their balance is through the roof. Trip just doesn't work in end game, except maybe from Adrenaline.

I started on HC a build that would use the Cuirass SWF and had this vision of using Next Fall buffs on tripped targets etc it lost interest when they hit level 18. Too much other stuff going on…

 

[saekee]

Beyond the Soul of Tide from Perfect Pinnacle work well too.

Oh I haven’t tried it—was using fire stance for the blindness proc which hits pretty often—and gives a crit multi—is that trip working on the shurikens too?

 

[Br4d]

Trip is working fine in heroics on mobs you can trip. That would be casters (almost all of them) and melees (maybe 50%). Useless against ranged as far as I can tell with a negligible trip rate, probably related to dex saves.

I tripped a wolf the other night. Very proud of that effort.

 

[Waveman]

Trip works well on the jeweled lions in the Feywild quest The Knight Who Cried Windmill. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[J1NG]

Oh I haven’t tried it—was using fire stance for the blindness proc which hits pretty often—and gives a crit multi—is that trip working on the shurikens too?

All attacks (weapons) whilst you are in Water Stance. So yes, Shurikens and Arrows would both work. Anything else that would Uncentre you however, would knock you out of Water Stance and make that weapon not apply the knockdown on Vorpal (20) - as you would no longer be in Water Stance.

J1NG

 

[The Blonde]

All attacks (weapons) whilst you are in Water Stance. So yes, Shurikens and Arrows would both work. Anything else that would Uncentre you however, would knock you out of Water Stance and make that weapon not apply the knockdown on Vorpal (20) - as you would no longer be in Water Stance.

J1NG

Do you have any comment on this theory Jing?

 

[Chacka]

Dispel has it's niches. Dispel arrows are useful for caster type mobs who then just stand there recasting blur.

He's probably referring to the spell, which is rendered useless due to its check against the monster's CR. Typically, monsters have a CR that makes it impossible to dispel them with a spell.

The dispelling arrows, on the other hand, are useful because they require no saving throw check. But that's a different story!