Is trip/improved trip... useless...

[Chacka]

The general problem with trip (and other "classic" tactical feats) is that you have to be strength-based and put a lot of effort into it to make it work (items, enhancements, feats, etc.). If you have good strength and maybe some items and past lives, it's actually not super hard to make it work.

But what bothers me is that if your build is not strength-based, it's way too hard to make your "classical" tactical feats work. For that reason, I suggested years ago that the DC check should be similar to Stunning Fist and based on the ability score that determines your to-hit score.

For example, if your character is a favored soul and your to-hit score is charisma-based due to the feat Grace of Battle, your DC check is also charisma-based.

The formula for the DC check should be 10 + (character level/2) + ability modifier that determines your to-hit + DC boosts. Additionally, the cooldowns should be shorter in general (e.g., Stunning Blow 6 seconds, Trip 6 seconds, and Improved Trip 4 seconds).

 

[Tilomere]

The abilities work as written, but mobs can have multipliers of their saves for trip resistance similar to how turn resistance works. A 100 save that doubles to 200 isn't going to be overcome by specializing in trip.

 

[glass_jaws]

Just as a data point, I'm doing R4 TOEE atm with my 4th life character who has a 97 improved trip. The aoe trip from Fury of the Wild core 4 seems to land about 50% of the time on the packs.

 

[J1NG]

Do you have any comment on this theory Jing?

Tests I have performed myself suggest that player Trip and Improved Trip attack correctly utilises a save DC vs Strength/Dexterity (highest of) of the target to trip them; exactly the same as what enemies use on players.

Tests were redone approximately 5 minutes ago from this post; using a dog from Bringing the Light to check for Trips made against players, and Trips used on other players in PvP as well as Improved Trip.

It might have been possible that when those tests were done it was different, I can not say. It will be akin to that update when everyone experienced funniness with DDO, but DDO released quickly fixes and updates that overwrote that short time things were really off. So it's not possible to verify afterwards.

J1NG

 

[Br4d]

Trips should be STR and DEX based. The move to multiple attributes for damage may have been acceptable but extending physical DC's ignores the painful reality that having a high CHA or INT already produces real benefits (UMD, skill points) that a STR or DEX based character does not get.

The move to multiple attributes for damage and hit chance already contributes heavily to overall power creep. Accentuating the creep just makes things worse.

 

[Desirdes]

I'm not talking about "harder content" I'm talking about heroic/epic elite content, And please note that I said that feat that has 5% chance of happening was more reliable than spamming trip attack, even if DC was low (not many options left for my build to increase it in heroic content, especially taking into account +20 DC from figter only feats) it would succeed at least as often as wind feat, which was not the case.


Also on part where player is subjected to trip, just ran HE just business and even with 51 STR (+20 to save) I had to roll 20 on trip saves in that quest to not get tripped.
that's heroic elite on STR build, so those trip DC are save only on 20 for anything other than min maxed STR/DEX builds

Hm that is strange, but then again sharn has stupid saves/stats/DCs for its level range for some reason. For your example, you were making the save on 71(51 STR + 20 roll) meaning the enemy needed to have around 60 total mods to dc plus the base 10. So depending on the math behind adding bonuses to their DC, a CR 20-22ish for HE Just Business monster with STR mainstat may make sense but it is hard to say given they don't tell us the monster's stats or modifiers in-game meaning unless a dev came in to tell us it is all speculation. And again sharn enemies in particular seem to have very high stats for their level brackets if you look at both tactic saves and spell saves they make compared to similar-level enemies found elsewhere. There is a reason any 'no fail' DC people want to reach is usually tested in sharn just to be safe on their assumption. After some more thorough testing after Dragonlord drops and I level it I will probably put my findings here unless someone else does it first. I like tactics so I would like to make sure they work properly even while leveling.

On the topic of the item causing more trips, that actually should be the case even if you had a 95% success on your manual trip rate so not really worth comparing them. Think about it, trip is 15 second cooldown and improved trip is 10 seconds whereas the item has no internal cooldown or target limit for the effect. Even in a 1v1 situation there will be many attack rolls made against you in between uses of trip so when you keep rolling that 5% chance over and over again with no save it will numerically almost always provide more overall trips/knockdowns by comparison. That is not really anything against the abilities just shows how dang good a 5% no-save effect is.

 

[Fisto Mk I]

Oh I haven’t tried it—was using fire stance for the blindness proc which hits pretty often—and gives a crit multi—is that trip working on the shurikens too?

Yea, it works, see it many times.

 

[Chacka]

Trips should be STR and DEX based. The move to multiple attributes for damage may have been acceptable but extending physical DC's ignores the painful reality that having a high CHA or INT already produces real benefits (UMD, skill points) that a STR or DEX based character does not get.

The move to multiple attributes for damage and hit chance already contributes heavily to overall power creep. Accentuating the creep just makes things worse.

There are many ways to balance a game, but my point is that we currently have the option to build a melee build around charisma, wisdom, intelligence, and dexterity, and for that reason, I do not see why you should lock out such a build from using tactical feats!
Furthermore, I do not see a significant power creep if you do that, but I see a lot of potential for more fun with DDO because tactical feats make playing a melee much more interesting (at least for me).
The main question is if a change causes a game to be more fun, and yes, I agree that too much power creep means, in the end, less fun. But if you get significantly more fun for a little power creep, you should do it.
As for the question of whether strength has enough use, you could also ask if more strength should maybe have other uses, like being able to break locks with enough strength.

 

[Desirdes]

Yep, it is definitely bugged terribly. Either my memory was bad or my last testing was done in an update where it worked. Well, I'm probably going to put my dragonlord on hold for now until this is fixed since I planned on going full tactics.

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

Yep, it is definitely bugged terribly. Either my memory was bad or my last testing was done in an update where it worked. Well, I'm probably going to put my dragonlord on hold for now until this is fixed since I planned on going full tactics.

you can hit the DCs needed for most quests. problem is you need so many past lives and perfectly optimized gear that it isn't worth it

 

[Desirdes]

you can hit the DCs needed for most quests. problem is you need so many past lives and perfectly optimized gear that it isn't worth it

Yeah I am too casual for that. My estimated end-game DCs with current past lives and gear would be around 116-130 depending on temp buffs. From testing of others in the current update's endgame that is not enough atm. I may still finish leveling to 20 but def not going to try tripping in epic/legend reaper. At least it seems devs acknowledged it and are looking so may get it fixed in the coming weeks.