It is time to increase THF damage multiplier

[songswrath]

being serious - if i am dealing 100 damage a swing with thf weapon i should be dealing 50 damage a swing with twf.

but i remember no one playing twf cause thf was so much better. the pendulum swings

i paly thf to see big numbers. the highest dps builds i done both aoe type dps and single target have been twf builds. 100% off hand than that off and having 65% change to dlb strike, dlb procs.
the 15 pally 5 dl using kukris build i did was nutz i also had chains on that build keep that in mind too

 

[Br4d]

That is the sorcs 1 and only job so yes

If you do this though you create a meta that is top heavy on Sorcs because they're gods before endgame. No choices to make there if you're looking for most effective character. Just build and gear a Sorc who will be great at everything.

Making a Sorc a bit less attractive at endgame is giving the players full agency in developing their toons.

 

[songswrath]

Just adding: what is the purpose of any given build or archetype?

I go back and forth on whether some coherent builds should be precluded from endgame while others are promoted. It's the Trinity lover in me who wants to see tanks be tanks and healers be healers and DPS help sort everything out.

THF builds are OP from mid-heroics to late epix. The question is whether there should be a significant role for them at endgame or not?

On the one hand you don't want dedicated builds excluded just because what they offer is no longer highly relevant. On the other hand you don't want every good build that works extremely well in one role, e.g. PL grinding, to also be extremely good at endgame. This removes agency from a players actions as they just need to create and gear one build for everything.

I see most THF builds as similar to Sorcerer in effect, just a bit less damage and a bit tankier. Do we want to give Sorcs similar DPS to the best endgame DPS builds?

facts THF builds peak in heroics. this is why staff builds are so easy to lvl you got good damage with a fast atk animation

 

[DBZ]

Have you played a sorc lately

 

[songswrath]

Have you played a sorc lately

nobody is playing much of anything right now ><

 

[Br4d]

facts THF builds peak in heroics. this is why staff builds are so easy to lvl you got good damage with a fast atk animation

I get better damage into epix with the ED's kicking in. I think THF peaks at 28 or maybe 29. The drop-off in Legendary content is noticeable due mainly to mobs being bloated bags of hit points.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

THF definitely does not need such a large buff. It works well in 99% of DDO as others have mentioned and should be less single target dps than TWF for raids.

The issue I see is that SWF builds are very close to TWF dps and with the large number of cleaves/whirlwind attacks available (and the absurdity that is chains) the THF AOE niche basically doesn't exist anymore. So besides early leveling there's almost no reason to choose THF over SWF.

I'd rather see knight's training affect greataxe/greatsword and a physical range increase so that strikethrough is more effective. This would give a very small dps buff that wouldn't make other styles obsolete, but more importantly it would open up many more builds that currently cant take advantage of falchion with +2 multiplier. (the only viable THF atm)

 

[Br4d]

If you dance in combat THF is more effective than SWF due to range requirements. The animations in THF as you move hit more targets than the animations in SWF and of course the strikethrough damage adds to that.

I've done a bunch of THF builds over the years and several SWF builds and the SWF builds are always squishier than the THF builds.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

I get better damage into epix with the ED's kicking in. I think THF peaks at 28 or maybe 29. The drop-off in Legendary content is noticeable due mainly to mobs being bloated bags of hit points.

Right, THF is propped up in heroics and epic due to SOS/ESOS/Xuum. After 28 its falchion barb/dragonlord only.

 

[rabidfox]

The question is whether there should be a significant role for them at endgame or not?

It's disappoint to me to run a build that feels nice and then finding out it's junk for what I play at cap. So many builds level nicely and then scale poorly at endgame. There's a difference between making a flavor build & knowing it'll likely be bad (and just made for fun) and making a strong build and realizing it has no place at cap when you get there. There's lots of builds I wish had a place there; it doesn't matter if they're strong for leveling, it's sad when the options for strong stuff in raids/quests in high difficulties/high skull raids all narrows down as things get turned up and so many nice setups get pushed to the wayside.

 

[songswrath]

It's disappoint to me to run a build that feels nice and then finding out it's junk for what I play at cap. So many builds level nicely and then scale poorly at endgame. There's a difference between making a flavor build & knowing it'll likely be bad (and just made for fun) and making a strong build and realizing it has no place at cap when you get there. There's lots of builds I wish had a place there; it doesn't matter if they're strong for leveling, it's sad when the options for strong stuff in raids/quests in high difficulties/high skull raids all narrows down as things get turned up and so many nice setups get pushed to the wayside.

my exp with this is if a build peaks early it tends to be crap at cap. most of the very good endgame builds are a p.i,a, to lvl. tanks the biggest. one of the most useful roles at end game but bring a buddy to lvl with tis going to be a ride or you lesser at cap.

 

[mikarddo]

Chains probably need a bit of a nerf.

 

[songswrath]

Chains probably need a bit of a nerf.

NO !!! chains is what cleaves should be

 

[Hobgoblin]

Chains probably need a bit of a nerf.

we actually need to stop nerfing things especially directly

if aoe is too powerful give us fewer mobs but mobs that cc you or mobs that have more hp/hit harder.

im tired of all the calls for nerfs.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

I'll leave the Falch/Gsword/Gaxe debate for another time, and will focus on the THF balance "defecit" here...

I'll start by saying I'm perfectly OK with TWF and SWF being better ST DPS than THF. I agree that they should be. It's not where THF's niche should be.

As someone pointed out though, cleaves etc. allow the "negatives" of TWF/SWF to be effectively mitigated, which is an indirect nerf to THF by erosion of the distinctive benefit of that THF niche.

Additionally, the ability to stack another set effect and augment on TWF/SWF is a very significant benefit. It's effectively a free bit of gear, which becomes of massive benefit at endgame gear tetris.

When you add these factors together, it seems that something significant is missing in terms of balance. I think the OP has merit in this context, though I'm not so sure on the solution...

I'd propose the following measures to help redress this, instead of simply upping THF damage directly...

1. Make all cleave attacks, with the exception of the initial cleave feet and barb's supreme cleave, restricted to requiring THF. This is a bit of a nerf, but is necessary IMO to allow more distinction between the playstyles.

2. Add an additional red augment slot to all THF weapons.

3. Any THF set items should count as two set pieces towards their given set.

These changes would erode many of the "additional" benefits TWF and SWF enjoy beyond their ST DPS, and also enhance THFs distinctive niche as AOE melee cleave, thus allowing a clear choice to be made.

As it stands, THF is behind the curve across too many aspects to be considered anything other than a sub optimal style IMO.

 

[songswrath]

I'll leave the Falch/Gsword/Gaxe debate for another time, and will focus on the THF balance "defecit" here...

I'll start by saying I'm perfectly OK with TWF and SWF being better ST DPS than THF. I agree that they should be. It's not where THF's niche should be.

As someone pointed out though, cleaves etc. allow the "negatives" of TWF/SWF to be effectively mitigated, which is an indirect nerf to THF by erosion of the distinctive benefit of that THF niche.

Additionally, the ability to stack another set effect and augment on TWF/SWF is a very significant benefit. It's effectively a free bit of gear, which becomes of massive benefit at endgame gear tetris.

When you add these factors together, it seems that something significant is missing in terms of balance. I think the OP has merit in this context, though I'm not so sure on the solution...

I'd propose the following measures to help redress this, instead of simply upping THF damage directly...

1. Make all cleave attacks, with the exception of the initial cleave feet and barb's supreme cleave, restricted to requiring THF. This is a bit of a nerf, but is necessary IMO to allow more distinction between the playstyles.

2. Add an additional red augment slot to all THF weapons.

3. Any THF set items should count as two set pieces towards their given set.

These changes would erode many of the "additional" benefits TWF and SWF enjoy beyond their ST DPS, and also enhance THFs distinctive niche as AOE melee cleave, thus allowing a clear choice to be made.

As it stands, THF is behind the curve across too many aspects to be considered anything other than a sub optimal style IMO.

100% in a agreement with this post but as someone else said knights training needs >Gsword/Gaxe added +1 muilti on great swords B swords 1 range great axe D axe. but the b sword and d axe mods need to be while carrying a shield

 

[Hobgoblin]

i want an axe that starts at normal crit range but x5 multi - give a special ability that stacks with pa of double damage

 

[Br4d]

Chains probably need a bit of a nerf.

Lots of stuff needs a nerf at endgame, however that doesn't change the notion that some builds should be endgame builds and others should be farming builds.

One of the problems with DDO right now is that there are systemic breaks in the various combat systems due to how layers stack. There are too many layers to start with and then there are specific abilities that are just busted as all the layers interact.

One way to check this would be to have numbers above a certain threshold automatically record the chain (no pun intended) of events that produced the number. This would lead quickly to discovery of factors that could then be appropriately controlled.

 

[DBZ]

A glass cannon without a cannon is a useless piece of glass with a blue bar to boot

 

[FuzzyDuck81]

If it's in reaper where the issue is, then put the solution in the reaper enhancement tree & have a thing at maybe tier 3 or 4 that increases the multiplier for 2handed weapons, that'll stop it bleeding over into non-reaper content.