KotC T5 vs. Vanguard T5

[Mordenkainen]

Building a Paladin Vanguard shield basher. I know I'm supposed to go all in on Vanguard tree and get Shield dash or whatever but then I'm looking at KoTC's T5 and I'm all like...

So, which do you guys recommend? KotC T5 or Vanguard T5?

 

[rabidfox]

Weren't you making a paladin DPS? Or a tank? For your newest flavor of the hour build, just try both; it's only going take plat for you swap between the two and you'll see for yourself how each plays.

 

[Pano]

It depends what you want to do. DPS? Deffences? There is no ultimate answer.

Also where is my poll?

 

[Mordenkainen]

I just want...


MAX

DPS

 

[PraetorPlato]

Then don't go vanguard, vanguard is the least DPS archetype of the DPS archetypes in the game.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Then don't go vanguard, vanguard is the least DPS archetype of the DPS archetypes in the game.

So yeah I'm running these numbers and these don't really stack up to say fighter or barb.

Does this mean if I'm doing paladin with a shield it's full on tank or nothing?

 

[PraetorPlato]

So yeah I'm running these numbers and these don't really stack up to say fighter or barb.

Does this mean if I'm doing paladin with a shield it's full on tank or nothing?

Fighter vanguard is equally awkward, they just have a bad ICD on shield bash. You can run vanguard as a tanky, cc-focused DPS, but TWF pally or something will dramatically outperform it on dps.

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

the fact that you asked about t5 vanguard tells me all I need to know about your lack of an ability to play the game. did you even look at the trees?

 

[Mordenkainen]

Fighter vanguard is equally awkward, they just have a bad ICD on shield bash. You can run vanguard as a tanky, cc-focused DPS, but TWF pally or something will dramatically outperform it on dps.

That was what I was afraid of. But is there any benefits to going shield as a albeit subpar DPS?

 

[PraetorPlato]

That was what I was afraid of. But is there any benefits to going shield as a albeit subpar DPS?

Little more durability, little more cc.

 

[Mordenkainen]

the fact that you asked about t5 vanguard tells me all I need to know about your lack of an ability to play the game. did you even look at the trees?

I'm just dipping my toes into shields bruh

 

[Mordenkainen]

Little more durability, little more cc.

but probably not worth he tradeoff of the loss of DPS?

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

vanguard dps is completely fine. no, it is not better than razorclaw, but its pretty darn good compared to non meta stuff. granted a normal twf pally or fighter is better, but vanguard gets the most defense of any dps, some of the best CC of any dps (rivaling dragonlord with the right items), as well as having multiple animation cancel attacks. just because you probably don't know, vanguard pally needs to have a favored weapon like a normal pally, and arguably the "best" vanguard weapon is either bastard or DAxe, and both of those are rough getting favored. bastard needs a +1 lesser heart from pdk, level 23 (so do the whole heriocs without any favored bonuses...). DAxe needs 11 racial points on dwarf. technically longsword and Warhammer solve those problems, but daxe/bastard are better IMO due to strikethrough, better CC weapons, and you have a lot of clear speed. it will be less dps vs a boss sure, but that's 1% of the game most likely. of note, vanguard pally gets the imbue on the shield if your mainhand weapon is favored. also, divine crusader t5 is the one you want as its the best for dps shield build. lastly, if you don't have the fire over morgrave shield, go home. you will be severely gimped in both shield dps and gearing and CC without it (doesn't matter at all for leveling)

 

[PraetorPlato]

yeah, it's totally playable and has some nice upsides, but if you're going for "just DPS", it's the wrong choice—even off-meta non-SnB DPS will outperform it on damage pretty handily. With that said, FoM shield is indeed a huge, huge upgrade, and it's a fun build if you want to play it.

 

[Grunndi]

That was what I was afraid of. But is there any benefits to going shield as an albeit subpar DPS?

They look cool

 

[Hobgoblin]

My initial thought is that you were dropped on the head as a baby, and a child and an adult.... But on the off chance your serious it is better DPS then a tank but far behind all the other styles. With enough raid gear you can make it work but.....

So try it have fun but expect to struggle

 

[unbongwah]

T5 KotC + Vanguard capstone is certainly doable and gets you the best of both trees; but doesn't leave sufficient points for other non-racial Enhancements. In particular, there are two types of melee builds: those using Haste Boost (which for a pure paladin means 8 APs into Vistani) and those with subpar burst DPS.

So I think 41 Vanguard / 24-31 KotC / 8-11 Vistani is a more practical combo, leaving up to 8 APs free for other things: e.g., if CHA-based non-PDK paladin, 7 APs Feydark Illusionist for CHA to hit & damage. I haven't updated my PDK Vanguard in years but the gist of the build is still the same.

 

[Mordenkainen]

vanguard dps is completely fine. no, it is not better than razorclaw, but its pretty darn good compared to non meta stuff. granted a normal twf pally or fighter is better, but vanguard gets the most defense of any dps, some of the best CC of any dps (rivaling dragonlord with the right items), as well as having multiple animation cancel attacks. just because you probably don't know, vanguard pally needs to have a favored weapon like a normal pally, and arguably the "best" vanguard weapon is either bastard or DAxe, and both of those are rough getting favored. bastard needs a +1 lesser heart from pdk, level 23 (so do the whole heriocs without any favored bonuses...). DAxe needs 11 racial points on dwarf. technically longsword and Warhammer solve those problems, but daxe/bastard are better IMO due to strikethrough, better CC weapons, and you have a lot of clear speed. it will be less dps vs a boss sure, but that's 1% of the game most likely. of note, vanguard pally gets the imbue on the shield if your mainhand weapon is favored. also, divine crusader t5 is the one you want as its the best for dps shield build. lastly, if you don't have the fire over morgrave shield, go home. you will be severely gimped in both shield dps and gearing and CC without it (doesn't matter at all for leveling)

Interesting. And thank you for replying with something constructive, seriously.

Couldn't I go Helm religion in order to be favored with Bsword?

T5 KotC + Vanguard capstone is certainly doable and gets you the best of both trees; but doesn't leave sufficient points for other non-racial Enhancements. In particular, there are two types of melee builds: those using Haste Boost (which for a pure paladin means 8 APs into Vistani) and those with subpar burst DPS.

So I think 41 Vanguard / 24-31 KotC / 8-11 Vistani is a more practical combo, leaving up to 8 APs free for other things: e.g., if CHA-based non-PDK paladin, 7 APs Feydark Illusionist for CHA to hit & damage. I haven't updated my PDK Vanguard in years but the gist of the build is still the same.

Interesting, but why go T5 into Vanguard and not KoTC. The only thing good in there is that K ockDown shield dash/chage whatever, but KoTC has some insane things like 5 extra melee power wih enough stacks or the retirbution that just kills evil things instantly. Like whoa stuff.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Have you considered just sacred defender instead? Would give you more solid defenses and you wouldn't have to worry about shield bashes and then you could pick up a tax speed in vkf. Outside of a few gems like the shield smash ing really worth it in vanguard is my argument

 

[Vox]

If he goes SD he could keep making friends of tanks too