Make charmed enemies targetable (or count as dead for quest objectives)

[Ooblagato]

Charm spells are really cool and quite powerful, but it's a shame that they often prevent quest progression. I'd love to see a quick patch here to fix that behavior by either making them targetable (similar to behavior of confused enemies), or by making them count as dead (similar to behavior of frogged enemies).

Edit:
To refine the suggestion a bit, having a metamagic type toggle on charms, which when on allows them to take damage would also allow players who prefer to current behavior to still enjoy using it as it is. (Maybe even just add this as a metamagic)

Edit2:
To further iterate on the problem with using charm and charm like spells in the current state-- the issue is that it is incompatible with most groups' playstyles. In most circumstances if a player is using charms they will slow the team down and likely be asked to stop or be harassed. Thus creates an environment that encourages players who enjoy these types of abilities to not group with others.

 

[Pardoner]

Signed.

 

[Dragavon]

if you can charm you can also dismiss charm.

This is not a problem.

 

[cdbd3rd]

Just give em the Swifty treatment - use em while they're useful, then break their charm and write a song about... erm, I mean kill them.

 

[Wini]

If you want to hit them, you have to cast Confusion. Charms are cool, but you know their drawbacks now.

Actually, I can't remember when was the las time I used them, since they are very limited on reapers or they just slow party play. On the other hand, if you can land a charm, usually you can cast a hold monster too, that is easily the most loved spell for all players to see around

 

[Dragavon]

aah, enlarged charm is very useful. Charm that carnage reaper, watch it go to town on nearby enemies, profit

Then dismiss and kill it. Muahahahaha!

 

[Ooblagato]

if you can charm you can also dismiss charm.

This is not a problem.

Hm, I see dismiss charm as a work around for the problem. Not a solution.

If you want to hit them, you have to cast Confusion. Charms are cool, but you know their drawbacks now.

Actually, I can't remember when was the las time I used them, since they are very limited on reapers or they just slow party play. On the other hand, if you can land a charm, usually you can cast a hold monster too, that is easily the most loved spell for all players to see around

This is exactly why I'm suggesting this; hold monster overshadows utilizing charms because charms slow things down.

aah, enlarged charm is very useful. Charm that carnage reaper, watch it go to town on nearby enemies, profit

Then dismiss and kill it. Muahahahaha!

I won't deny charms are very useful even in their current state, and could see balance reasons being a fair reason to leave it be. Though giving a chance to save and break out on taking damage from a player or something would be a good way to balance this.

 

[Dragavon]

Hm, I see dismiss charm as a work around for the problem. Not a solution.

I completely disagree here.

Charm is a tool to be used when useful.

Dismiss is a tool to be used when useful.

I have dismiss charm next to the charm spell on my hotbar.

Charms do not stay charmed forever. Charm as it is now is not a problem that needs fixing.

 

[Ying]

Charm spells are really cool and quite powerful, but it's a shame that they often prevent quest progression.

Which quests and what situations?

 

[Ooblagato]

Which quests and what situations?

Anything with susceptible enemies when doing Solo reaper 10s.

I completely disagree here.

Charm is a tool to be used when useful.

Dismiss is a tool to be used when useful.

I have dismiss charm next to the charm spell on my hotbar.

Charms do not stay charmed forever. Charm as it is now is not a problem that needs fixing.

Charm as it is now is acceptable when soloing or in slower paced gameplay. But if you start using charm in a typical zergy group, where the standard is to maybe crowd control, aoe blast, and move on, you're going to make enemies that were unharmed from all that aoe damage. Because of this, it makes the two gameplay styles incompatible.
This would not be much of a problem if they just stood around until the charm wore off and weren't soul bound to keep doors and objectives locked (hence the counting as dead suggestion). But as it stands it simply makes charms annoying when playing as a team that is appropriately powerful to progress through the quest at a good pace otherwise.

 

[Dragavon]

Like any tool you use charm when it is useful.

If you use charm when it is not useful that is on you.

 

[Ooblagato]

Like any tool you use charm when it is useful.

If you use charm when it is not useful that is on you.

Okay, but should it be that way? I get that it's usable in some circumstances as it is, hence me caring about wanting to use it more often. But generally those circumstances involve solo or suboptimal play in terms of efficiency/clear times. I would like to be able to use it when I'm playing with others and earning in game rewards effectively.

 

[Ying]

Anything with susceptible enemies when doing Solo reaper 10s.

Generalities aren't going to get you dev traction.

 

[Dragavon]

I get that it's usable in some circumstances as it is, hence me caring about wanting to use it more often.

Everything in DDO is more useful in some circumstances, less useful in other circumstances.

Learning that is an important part of DDO.

 

[l_remmie]

Charms could use a fundamental overhaul. They should be used a little more often. Here's some theorycrafting.
I'd first organize them into 3 categories: Charm, Confusion, Dominion.

Charms
Duration: 6,12,18 secs / Standard save, save+2, save+4, end
Can be dismissed. Damage dispels
Works on yellow and orange enemies.

Confusion
Duration: 6 seconds. Standard save
Cannot be dismissed.
Works on yellow and orange enemies.

Dominion
Permanent Duration: Standard save
Max active follower number. Autofails beyond.
Cannot be dismissed. Mob despawns if it can't follow.
Works only on yellow enemies.
Mobs count as killed for doortriggers and conquest etc.

Yes i see that dominion is arguably better than kill spells. Protection from evil casts and champion buffs should counter these as deathward does to those.

There also has to be some mechanic that lets mobs do comparable damage to other mobs. Because of the playerHP and mobHP differences.

Enhancement trees could further change details. Heck maybe a charmer universal tree.


Dev question: Is Dominion at all possible? Can you have for example 5 mobs turn into followers and have them either teleport with you or delete themselves when they can no longer follow.

 

[Onyxia2016]

I am not seeing the issue. Charm has the Dismiss Charm and both are WAI and have been from day 1.
Once the charmed monsters have out lived their usefulness or there kills are needed, dismiss the charm and kill them.

Now if you happen the charm the entire dungeon and have 50 monsters standing around, dismissing the charm on all of them at once would be problematic.

Counting them as kills could have unforeseen issues. Charm is not permanent so if they break the charm and you kill them, you would basically be getting two kills for the same monster. This would turn into and exploit.

I suggest leaving charm and dismiss charm as they are and have been for 18 years.

 

[Ooblagato]

I am not seeing the issue. Charm has the Dismiss Charm and both are WAI and have been from day 1.
Once the charmed monsters have out lived their usefulness or there kills are needed, dismiss the charm and kill them.

Now if you happen the charm the entire dungeon and have 50 monsters standing around, dismissing the charm on all of them at once would be problematic.

Counting them as kills could have unforeseen issues. Charm is not permanent so if they break the charm and you kill them, you would basically be getting two kills for the same monster. This would turn into and exploit.

I suggest leaving charm and dismiss charm as they are and have been for 18 years.

It's not that it's a bug or anything. It's that it discourages players who enjoy these types of spells and strategies from grouping with others. I even like the spells, and in general I'd find it pretty annoying if someone was using them in my group when we are otherwise progressing smoothly.
This problem has been there from the start and is why you typically don't see people using these spells.

The counting as kills aspect may require more work than the targetable aspect to implement. That said, flagging them with the same trait frogs from the frog spell should eliminate most issues, excluding consequences for the party like if they start breaking out of their charms in a hold-out type quest like tavern brawl.

 

[Onyxia2016]

It's not that it's a bug or anything. It's that it discourages players who enjoy these types of spells and strategies from grouping with others. I even like the spells, and in general I'd find it pretty annoying if someone was using them in my group when we are otherwise progressing smoothly.
This problem has been there from the start and is why you typically don't see people using these spells.

The counting as kills aspect may require more work than the targetable aspect to implement. That said, flagging them with the same trait frogs from the frog spell should eliminate most issues, excluding consequences for the party like if they start breaking out of their charms in a hold-out type quest like tavern brawl.

I think this comes down to using the spell as intended and not just whenever you can.
It is a CC spell no different than sound blast or greater color spray. When you need to ease the incoming damage or take control of an encounter use a CC spell. Charm has the added benefit or increasing the parties damage output in the form of helpers. When all is going smooth you don't really need CC as it is a waist of SP. If you run across someone that is charming everything in site when there is no real need for any CC then a polite discussion on tactics my be needed so everyone is on the same page. This can also help the cast of the charm. When the charm is broken or wears off the caster is the one those monsters are going for.

If there was no way to remove the charm effect I could understand it being an issue but that is not the case.

I can not speak for the group you mention but the ones I run with do challenging difficulties so CC charm is a great tool in the toolbox.

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

anything to make more spells useful

 

[Titus Ovid]

Charm Monsters is basically a spell to make allies fight for you or to prevent someone from revealing you. I can see that the mechanic can be a hindrance in some situations. Nowadays the spell is not needed as much anymore. It is more niche like Spawn Screen for example or Flaming Sphere. The spell has pros and cons like most other spells. If everything runs smoothly you don't need allies. So yes it might not be a useful spell for quest zergs.
But I ran WGU yesterday with a pug, we zerged. At the endfigt the sorc used the spell to make allies that destroy the pillars. He just ran in circles and charmed orcs at the right time. It was fun to watch and effective and efficient.

I like that the spell has pros and cons. It is for you to decide in which situation it works. And if it works it is a witty decision that honors the caster.

Cheers,
Titus