"(MELEE)" Threat gen.

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Orchidblossomwasgutted

Well-known member
Why is my measly 200-400% threat gen matter over the tanks threat gen? Im getting Yelled at for having ANY Threat gen at all! If im melee dps'ing and the TANK Cant grab aggro from everyone in the party including melee..... theni dont know what to think on the Weak tank that cant do its job right.
 
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Randomdude1223

Well-known member
Orchidblossomwasgutted said:
Why is my measly 200-400% threat gen matter over the tanks threat gen? Im getting Yelled at for having ANY Threat gen at all! If im melee dps'ing and the TANK Cant grab aggro from everyone in the party including melee..... theni dont know what to think on the Weak tank that cant do its job right.
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BotteDaOrbi

Member
Orchidblossomwasgutted said:
Why is my measly 200-400% threat gen matter over the tanks threat gen? Im getting Yelled at for having ANY Threat gen at all! If im melee dps'ing and the TANK Cant grab aggro from everyone in the party including melee..... theni dont know what to think on the Weak tank that cant do its job right.
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You do not seem to understand the concept that threat slotted on a melee outscales that of a tank, because the tank is doing a negligible amount of damage compared to melee.

Melee should have negative threat, and at least -50% of it. Intimidate and knight’s challenge alone are not enough to hold the boss on low difficulties if someone has 200%+ threat, so you are effectively always spinning the boss and killing your group. If you are unable to grasp this and are calling the tank weak, you deserve to be yelled at.
 
Praun

Praun

Well-known member
If the tank doesn't have over 1000% threat and a 70+ intimidate, then the tank is weak.

Trying to blame someone else for their schism is wrong.
 
rabidfox

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Orchidblossomwasgutted said:
Why is my measly 200-400% threat gen matter over the tanks threat gen? Im getting Yelled at for having ANY Threat gen at all! If im melee dps'ing and the TANK Cant grab aggro from everyone in the party including melee..... theni dont know what to think on the Weak tank that cant do its job right.
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Melee can get -50% off a single filigree. Threat management is the job of the DPS and tanks. If you're bad at your job, don't blame the person who's doing their job correctly. On the upside, when you die you'll be off the threat table.
 
Kyrr

Kyrr

Well-known member
rabidfox said:
Melee can get -50% off a single filigree. Threat management is the job of the DPS and tanks. If you're bad at your job, don't blame the person who's doing their job correctly. On the upside, when you die you'll be off the threat table.
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As an Half Elf tank, I don't press the intimidate button after pressing it once, if there's not a Sacred/Stalwart or Imbue user.
 
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Hobgoblin

Well-known member
You don't understand threat

Tank with 1k threat.

Deals say 500 damage that generates 50000 threat

Your DPS comes along with 0 threat and deals a vorp crit for 60k. He's pulling agro. Now if he has your 200 that is now 240k threat. Hard to pull that back

On lh it is just annoying. On reaper that can be an easy party wipe
 
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AMess

Well-known member
this is tricky subject. for raids melee dps does not want threat. for typical questing melee dps may want some threat so as to pull threat off of casters/archers.

the design issue here is that threat is not easily scaled up and down. There are heroic enhancements, epic destiny, and gear that affect threat, none of which are easily changed. Also, as stated above tank threat gen is difficult for all but a handful builds/players.

IMO there could be a single toggle that all characters get where you can disable increases to melee threat generation entirely. b/c it's not rational to think you could change so much about your character build. presently, you must either build for raids or non-raids (or some less effective hybrid)...the game would be more fun for more folks & in my fantasy world I think it'd be easy to simply be less threatening, b/c you've been trained in how to be more threatening, so you simply don't follow that training, so a toggle also makes fantasy world sense (is that a thing?)
 
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Gimp-1

Gimp-1

Well-known member
To OP turn off Stalwart Defender stance if you have it on. Its generally a problem.

Also you should be -threat generation or you are doing it wrong as DPS. I literally swap gear out between being DPS with negative threat gen and when i need to be a tank with a few hundred threat gen. I am not a tank but that doesnt keep people from asking me when im the most hp in the group.

Also remember everybody can be a tank...it just a question of how long.
 
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PraetorPlato

Well-known member
Praun said:
If the tank doesn't have over 1000% threat and a 70+ intimidate, then the tank is weak.

Trying to blame someone else for their schism is wrong.
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It doesn’t matter at all if the tank has 1k threat if the DPS is running threat. Let’s say our tank has 2k threat and is pulling 2k dps (quite high for a tank), for a max of 40k threat per second. Our DPS has easily 30k dps (lowfor a melee in a burst window), if they’re running 100% threat, that’s 60k-the tank has no hope of keeping aggro. The situation’s actually worse than that, bc DPS threat is very spikey-you hit adren for 200k and generate 400k threat, the tank can’t pull back without intim, so when the next DPS hits adren, tank has no options.
 
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Archaic

Well-known member
Like others have said... unless you are trying to grab aggro don't be slotting things that increase your threat level especially if you need others to heal you... which is most likely the reason you were getting yelled at, not because you were grabbing aggro (unless everyone including you were positioned opposite of the tank and you drew threat against the rest of the party) but because you were making the healer(s) frantic.
So question... how many times were you ressurected?
Glass Cannons that throw themselves against the wall crashes parties.
In smaller parties at lower difficulties melee might want aggro but raids especially higher level reaper is another beast.
If you want to deal and take damage drawing it away from the squishies...stay on top or besides the tank.
So yeah... having threat multipliers you built an aggro grabbing melee, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing if you keep aggro in a forward position while Everyone else stays in positions more suitable for their roles.
Most bosses have strike through or AOE attacks so those who are dealing consistent high amount of damage with high HP (melee) should be centered around the tank. So... yeah though they had an argument relying simply on aggro grabbers to keep everyone out of harms way, if people were playing sidekick on the frontlines they were asking to take some of the backlash as well because raid bosses tend to not be single target focused.
 
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songswrath

Well-known member
If i tanking and you have def stance on. expect to die. ill will let you die along with who ever the healer is. we are not going to turn a raid boss into a dance partner. like stated above by a few others
one nice crt and aggro gone . Do the def trees need some re work so none tank can use them for sure there should be zero hate gen for basic stance and more hate added in other parts of tree. i also think the tank tree need a bit of to hit and melee power.
 
Jack Jarvis Esquire

Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
A poor tank will get found out pdq in my experience. But DPS need to play their part too. Drawing aggro off the tank is generally a recipe for disaster. The tank is there for good reason after all.

-50% threat from a filigree should be a minimum for high DPS IMO. Whilst perhaps overkill, I run with -100% with -30% from SD ED and -20% from the augment (which is the only really difficult piece to get).

EDIT: afaik you could slot 2x-50% treachery filigrees as an alternative, so -100% is actually pretty easy to get.

If you couple that with a high Intimidate, you can control your personal aggro pretty well I find, which isn't just altruistic to team well with tanks, but is actually a pretty decent help in survival in group play generally.😁👍
 
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Bjond

Bjond

Well-known member
Agro "pong" can be a lot of fun, but it's one of those games the "ball" doesn't appreciate as much as the players. I still recall the good ol' days in EQ1:plane of Fear where two wizards could stand on opposite sides of the field and make the entire raid run back and forth .. back and forth .. back and .. "ok, jokes over, cut it out or get punted!"

DDO agro isn't as simple as "total DPS wins". Sequence, frequency, magnitude, and distance all seem to be factors.

Most "tank" builds that hit forums filter down from the push-raiding crowd where the tank needs to sacrifice all dps for ttl. It's quite possible to run a DPS tank if you're not push raiding and do very decent DPS -- mine does maybe grade-C DPS (about like a swash), which when multiplied just glues stuff. However, while my tanks are great for R1 raid and R10 quests, they'd fail hard on push raiding.

My two real DPS will pull agro (melee threat-30, ranged threat-70) on occasion, but by far the worst agro offender I have is this junky 1st life INQ HC rebuild with threat-70 that doesn't even do as much DPS as my tank. Imbues are buggy as hell for threat.
 
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Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
Tanks have terrible dps so even with a high threat they will lose aggro is dps characters aren't spec'ing properly.

Players with average and below average dps can still pull agro if they have positive threat.

Sarlona Raiding said:
Ideally you want to be at -95%, it's easy for melee

-50% treachery filigree
-30% shadowdancer
-20% Augment

If you use defense stance for soloing, turn it off for raids. I see all too often a non-tank pulling agro with defensive stance even if their dps is subpar.

Tanks have terrible dps and a big mulitplier. You need a big negative multiplier as a result.
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