HoopleHead
Well-known member
I STILL think the most horrendous 'at level' challenge is 'Proof is in the Poison'... that quest is just plain MEAN
Melfs Acid arrow is overtuned (Spawn of Whisperdoom)
- Thread starter rabidfox
- Start date
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
It's questionable if mobs should even get updated players spells. I don't think it's intended, but it happens all the time, probably due to the spaghetti-nature of 15yr old DDO code. It's also been "fixed" a bunch of times when it gets annoying for players, so I would not be surprised if that will be the case here as well. It's especially problematic on spells that have no save. Players are kind of spoiled by nearly always saving or fully evading most spell damage.
That said, if Melf stacks on mobs, its actually not terrible. Might even be slightly good. Without stacking it would quickly lose usefulness however, so I would think twice before removing it. One could maybe discuss just removing the stacking on players, or simply reverting it to the old version.
Acid badly needed a buff though, and it still has a very small list of useful spells, but mostly at higher levels. There was supposed to be a SL5 Cone of Acid in DnD (similar to Cone of Cold) but DDO never implemented that, and this left a huge AoE gap between Acid Rain at SL4 and Acid Well at SL9. Single-target is now pretty decent I think if both Melf and BDB stack.
That said, if Melf stacks on mobs, its actually not terrible. Might even be slightly good. Without stacking it would quickly lose usefulness however, so I would think twice before removing it. One could maybe discuss just removing the stacking on players, or simply reverting it to the old version.
Acid badly needed a buff though, and it still has a very small list of useful spells, but mostly at higher levels. There was supposed to be a SL5 Cone of Acid in DnD (similar to Cone of Cold) but DDO never implemented that, and this left a huge AoE gap between Acid Rain at SL4 and Acid Well at SL9. Single-target is now pretty decent I think if both Melf and BDB stack.
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Guntango
Well-known member
Yes, and from a push raider that is an encyclopedia of DDO knowledge, considering all play styles and levels of expertise, his expert opinion is that acid is overtuned in this quest. You haven’t given us a decent reason why this quest, above all others, should have excessively high acid damage or why it should require a new player to have push raider level of expertise in order to run this quest when all others in this level range don’t.
The Narc
Well-known member
Again the problem in this quest is the fast spamming of melfs and the fact that it stacks, previously when it didnt stack the whisperdoom spawn were completely trivial for most veteran players. It is the ultimate challenge for the devs and they continue to fail at the challenge as it is the impossible problem.
They can not balance content for both veteran players and new players, but they want the content to be grindy enough that it will encourage using xp pots and otto boxes to get past heroic content on the hamster wheel. The big problem with that is it utterly discourages new players from staying in the game as paying customers and it takes the fun out of the game as it did for rabidfox in his original post.
They can not balance content for both veteran players and new players, but they want the content to be grindy enough that it will encourage using xp pots and otto boxes to get past heroic content on the hamster wheel. The big problem with that is it utterly discourages new players from staying in the game as paying customers and it takes the fun out of the game as it did for rabidfox in his original post.
Chai
Well-known member
New players always get trotted out in these wonderful discussions about things being overtuned in reaper, the difficulty setting where the DM is trying to kill your character. Do you expect new players to play the same difficulty as a push raider that is an encyclopedia of DDO knowledge?
The decent reason which was already given, is simple really. Someone of this calibur should be ready for what's in the quest. I was, and I'm not push raiding R10s. I listed specifically what was used. Not difficult to obtain for anyone of this level of expertise.
Did a few people forget to equip the right gear and had an oopsie-daisy, or are we asking for it to be nerfed back down to 2011 values because this spike damage in one quest requires using slightly more time consuming tactics like LoS and bursting down single mobs, rather than full on round'em up and kill zoning 2-3 rooms at a time? People can also choose to avoid this quest if having to be presise with timing causes their XP/min to dip too far, in a game where nuking everything from orbit at run speed is normalized.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
I really had zero desire to break down and explain things as the initial post was mostly meant for dev attention. It was on r1. I was on a lvl 15 character in sharn gear. I had resists spell, ship buffs, and elemental prot going. Most attacks in there barely touched the character I was on except the acid dot from melfs (it wasn't my total completionist character that was parked at cap, just an alt). Melfs sliced through me and others in the party like a hot knife thru warm butter. Wasn't pulling half the zone, was doing one pack at a time. The acid damage was excessive in relationship to other damage in that quest (and compared to other quests in general around that level range). I was using reasonable levels of counter spells to deal with the acid attacks and it wasn't holding up well; it's just a leveling quest and it wasn't like this the last time I stepped into there before the acid damage work/event. I've run this quest on HC every season with zero issues, in way worse gear, and never even noticed melf being an issue. The devs can decide if they're okay with the damage or not, but I think they should check it out and decide themselves.
Oh yes, completely free to just not run a quest that is suddenly harder by an order of magnitude.
Well that is what happens when word gets around that a given quest is wildly overtuned. Thereby leading to dead content.
Perhaps you would do well to remember that when they re-tuned environmental acid damage a certain quest taking place in the belly of the beast became an utterly terrifying mess because even with 50% innate resistance on top of flat resists it was still chipping people for a hundred plus damage at a time. The devs have a habit of shotgunning adjustments to the game via what feels like regex with little regard towards quests that would be more heavily impacted than normal.
Well that is what happens when word gets around that a given quest is wildly overtuned. Thereby leading to dead content.
Perhaps you would do well to remember that when they re-tuned environmental acid damage a certain quest taking place in the belly of the beast became an utterly terrifying mess because even with 50% innate resistance on top of flat resists it was still chipping people for a hundred plus damage at a time. The devs have a habit of shotgunning adjustments to the game via what feels like regex with little regard towards quests that would be more heavily impacted than normal.
Chai
Well-known member
A bunch of permadeathers made it through with the gear they found from 1-12, but the quest is an order of magnitude harder than it used to be?
I think the people who havent wiped in a heroic quest in 12 years got a wake up call, and that which cannot be defeated in game on attempt #1 shall be defeated on the forums.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
Update 60: https://www.ddo.com/update-notes/ddo-update-60-release-notes
- Acid volumes now scale with level and difficulty. This makes them less lethal at low level but more dangerous at high level.
It could also just be the combo of the new champs for event spinning it up a bunch. But that's easier for a dev to check out.
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I'd be amused at a pack of HC types doing a level 22 base quest that is known to be bugged in only level 12 equipment. There is a reason why that quest became dead content. I was commenting about how just saying don't run content you don't find fair and fun leads to content that nobody runs anymore. And frankly it *should* be complained about to get fixed.
Chai
Well-known member
We're talking about a level 11 base quest.
Chai
Well-known member
3 full updates since then, but somehow there has been zero time to play DDO after U60 up til now?
We did it, and we made it through.
Edit: I think you might be thinking HC when I am talking about actual permadeath players, which have been in this game since it released or shortly thereafter.
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The Narc
Well-known member
I could still run this now on my permadeath level 12 solo, but that is not the point, the point is the effect this has on new players.
No group is required for this quest even with the tumed up acid!
Chai
Well-known member
Why do "new players" always get trotted out in these discussions about reaper difficulty?
Chai
Well-known member
No absorption?
I don't expect new players to run reaper or to be perfectly geared, but an encyclopedia of knowledge, as your guildie Gunga refers to you as (and I don't disbelieve him), should be able to pull out all the stops.
That mob in the screenshot was also a psionic thrall. How many stacks of the buff did it have?
rabidfox
The People's Champion
That was a lvl 23 character with acid absorbtion and higher resists too; I was just taking a screenshot for a quick example of what I saw the other day, not for a full recreation of those 20+ runs and the overall results I saw on them. Feel free to take your own screenshots of your results; and like I've said before on this thread, the champs may be effecting it, but only the devs can fully test that right now (or I can when the event is over) but the relative damage from the same mob with acid damage vs any other damage they're doing is vastly different.
Xaerxiessia
Lost in Translation
My two cents question : Is not Melf's Acid Arrow a conjuration spell ?
Concealment, incorporeality and dodge should have an effect here as the arrowis should be a physical attack.
And also , talking about old times, there was an era when it was possible for ALL new player to buff at max (+30) against all elements in the cargo of guild ship.
Concealment, incorporeality and dodge should have an effect here as the arrow
And also , talking about old times, there was an era when it was possible for ALL new player to buff at max (+30) against all elements in the cargo of guild ship.