Proposal For a Change to XP Curves

[canicus]

I would like to propose a change to how the required xp to level increases. I have seen many people on the forums indicate they would like a change so that newer players can feel less left behind. I know that, in general, MMOs try to keep people playing as much and as long as possible and there are clearly elements in DDO that fall in that category. So, rather than just removing the 2nd and 3rd life curves( which wouldn't bother me at all, BTW) what if we extended the system a bit.

Here is my proposal:
Lives 1-15: use the current first life curve. This will allow new players the option of getting Heroic Completionist relatively quickly if they choose.
Lives 16-40: use the 2nd life curve. This is arbitrary, just doubling the initial 15 lvls. By the time a player has 40 lives, they are certainly bought into the game for the long term and extending the time to attain future lives shouldn't be too much of a burden.
Lives 41+: 3rd Life curve

The numbers can certainly be adjusted, but I think the general concept of allowing new players to TR a reasonable number of times quickly as well as hopefully keeping long term players from feeling like they did an enormous amount of work that others don't have to.

Please let me know what you think.

 

[Vox]

Nah, just extend reaper trees & make them account based, and depreciate older raid loot to BTA

You don't need all the lives to tank or dps or heal or CC even on r10, but gaining lives gives carrots to chase & IMO shouldn't be so easy to tap out.

 

[Fhrek]

Please let me know what you think.

I think any "reduce the EXP curve" attempt is beating a dead horse.

SSG has made (almost) clear new player retention isn't a priority or desirable way to move foward. Keeping the current playerbase is enough... Devs time is for put out new content to end-gamers and treadmill TR dwellers.

 

[Chai]

Time consumption =/= difficulty, just irritation, and they sell you the solution to that in the store, so not likely going to get a free of charge QoL solution for that.

 

[Blu]

I think it's exactly what the game needs. Give new players not only a chance to catch up and reach a good reward fairly quickly but 15 lives in the player is most likely hooked and hence financially invested which is what SSG wants and needs. Account based PL's is always another option, as again it opens the player to needing more bank space for loot/character spaces for classes to complete, hence more subs and purchases to get extra character slots to get the PL's

The old guard that continue to beat the dead horse of leave my achievement alone of having all the PL's need to change their attitude towards new players.
The reality is newer/younger gamers come from a generation of instant gratification in games with achievements or quicker progression, whilst I'm not here to debate whether this is a good or bad trend, it is the current trend and the more of a dopamine hit a game gives to player through those achievements the more they play it and spend on it.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

I think it's exactly what the game needs. Give new players not only a chance to catch up and reach a good reward fairly quickly but 15 lives in the player is most likely hooked and hence financially invested which is what SSG wants and needs. Account based PL's is always another option, as again it opens the player to needing more bank space for loot/character spaces for classes to complete, hence more subs and purchases to get extra character slots to get the PL's

The old guard that continue to beat the dead horse of leave my achievement alone of having all the PL's need to change their attitude towards new players.
The reality is newer/younger gamers come from a generation of instant gratification in games with achievements or quicker progression, whilst I'm not here to debate whether this is a good or bad trend, it is the current trend and the more of a dopamine hit a game gives to player through those achievements the more they play it and spend on it.

To be fair- there are a large number of vets (myself included) who are also arguing that the dev team just give lives for free after you've attained a minimum number or lives. We don't want you stuck on the forever TR train- we want you to get your PLs quickly and be at endgame with the rest of us.

 

[hit_fido]

If your concern is for new players feeling underpowered why not simplify this and propose SSG just give brand new accounts a set of 25 Bound Heroic Otto boxes and 25 Bound Improved Epic Otto boxes. Then a new player could consume all those and immediately start playing the game with 10 or 15 heroic and epic past lives. SSG doesn't even need to make a system wide change, or produce a new item or new onboarding mechanism other than to award brand new accounts that are created from this day forward enough Otto boxes to start with roughly 10-15 heroic and epic past lives. According to you, this will make them more likely to keep playing, right?

 

[rabidfox]

newer players

My experience (from dealing with newbies directly - still a flawed sample as they're people that actively choose to pop on the DDO community discord) is new players would like the quest coupon code back, they'd like all but the current latest expansion content available to VIP, they'd like the game to just work out of the box without having to hop onto discord/forums and jump thru hoops to get things up and running, they'd like to know that the path they took at character creation was a good choice and will level nicely, along with many other various things.

 

[Vox]

new players would like the quest coupon code back, they'd like all but the current latest expansion content available to VIP

Agreed. I believe the biggest block to new players is the excessive paywalled content, not the issue of catching up with vets.

Adventure packs should be included in a new player account, possibly at least up until the current year - more recent ones could be gifted as part of the anniversary celebrations. That way there is still some value in VIP & purchasing customers.

Xpacs should really include the previous ones in the price, even if only for the higher price.

 

[paddymaxson]

Agreed. I believe the biggest block to new players is the excessive paywalled content, not the issue of catching up with vets.

Adventure packs should be included in a new player account, possibly at least up until the current year - more recent ones could be gifted as part of the anniversary celebrations. That way there is still some value in VIP & purchasing customers.

Xpacs should really include the previous ones in the price, even if only for the higher price.

Exactly.....but I do think a lack of catchup mechanic is the second problem.

First it's "Oh I can't play 9/10 of the quests, and that 9/10 includes all the quests anyone ever plays" then it's "oh, every group is full of people with reaper points and many past lives and trying to keep up with them is a miserable experience"

New players get cursed to either solo on lower difficulties or get paired with ******** like me who do not have the patience to wait for them sometimes.

 

[Purr]

Exactly.....but I do think a lack of catchup mechanic is the second problem.

First it's "Oh I can't play 9/10 of the quests, and that 9/10 includes all the quests anyone ever plays" then it's "oh, every group is full of people with reaper points and many past lives and trying to keep up with them is a miserable experience"

New players get cursed to either solo on lower difficulties or get paired with ******** like me who do not have the patience to wait for them sometimes.

A thing to remember is that the past lives are marginally helpful, the thing that puts new players behind is the lake of time in game. You could start new players with a dozen class past life benefits, and they still wouldn't be able to keep up with a first lifer in the hands of someone who had been playing for years and years. Getting good at DDO requires a ton of outside-the-game time investment, too, reading up on builds, searching through the wiki, etc.

I don't have a good solution to that problem for new players, but I like the idea of making more content "cheap to play" instead of only "free to play" or "expensive to play."

I'd also love to see some in-game NPCs there to help new players out, like a guy who says "I see you're playing a rogue--you should make sure you have gear with search, open locks, and disable device bonuses" etc.

 

[Nokowi]

The core issue is you have players that take month(s) to get one past life and those that can do it in less than 24 hours.
I think a better solution is a daily use or lose XP bonus --> think of a 300% quest XP bonus (not saga) for 2 hours, or 300% XP bonus for 5 quests.
The casual player can play 0-2 hours per day and get a past life 3x faster.
The power leveler still gets a past life in a day.

Elder Scrolls Online has the best model, which is an inspiration bonus that builds each day up to a max amount and that can be used for a set amount of XP. If you play once a week you can still play long enough to fully utilize the accumulated bonus.

 

[Nandos]

I wouldn't mind a change to the xp curve. I would change it to be a small increase each additional life though. For example, each life beyond the first would need 5% more xp than the last until it eventually caps at what 3rd lives take now.

 

[Fizban]

I think any "reduce the EXP curve" attempt is beating a dead horse.

SSG has made (almost) clear new player retention isn't a priority or desirable way to move foward. Keeping the current playerbase is enough... Devs time is for put out new content to end-gamers and treadmill TR dwellers.

Just entirely not TRUE!

 

[paddymaxson]

A thing to remember is that the past lives are marginally helpful, the thing that puts new players behind is the lake of time in game. You could start new players with a dozen class past life benefits, and they still wouldn't be able to keep up with a first lifer in the hands of someone who had been playing for years and years. Getting good at DDO requires a ton of outside-the-game time investment, too, reading up on builds, searching through the wiki, etc.

I don't have a good solution to that problem for new players, but I like the idea of making more content "cheap to play" instead of only "free to play" or "expensive to play."

I'd also love to see some in-game NPCs there to help new players out, like a guy who says "I see you're playing a rogue--you should make sure you have gear with search, open locks, and disable device bonuses" etc.

Sure, Yeah, lack of experience is an issue, and a lack of meaningful onboarding also sucks, but I don't know if triple completionist is a marginal bonus. I've certainly seen first life builds that kick ass but I've also seen builds that won't work without 36 point builds or without racial APs.

 

[Blu]

I've also seen builds that won't work without 36 point builds or without racial APs.

This. The whole argument that PL's don't matter or are only marginally helpful is just not true at all. Racial trees are packed with some exceptional bonuses to certain builds/classes that will boost the power of any player new or old and would make the learning curve easier/smoother if a player had them.

Whilst I agree as a more experienced player that knowledge of the game is more important than past lives for new players, as you gain more experience, wanting to and pushing higher difficulties does in some way require PL's to hit DC's land attacks more often, dodge/reduce damage from traps, resist spells. Making PL's easier to achieve and quicker to achieve will help retention of players in the long run.

 

[mbartol]

If your concern is for new players feeling underpowered why not simplify this and propose SSG just give brand new accounts a set of 25 Bound Heroic Otto boxes and 25 Bound Improved Epic Otto boxes. Then a new player could consume all those and immediately start playing the game with 10 or 15 heroic and epic past lives. SSG doesn't even need to make a system wide change, or produce a new item or new onboarding mechanism other than to award brand new accounts that are created from this day forward enough Otto boxes to start with roughly 10-15 heroic and epic past lives. According to you, this will make them more likely to keep playing, right?

The issue with that is Otto’s don’t give new players game experience. Zipping through multiple Past Lives, even with reduced XP requirements, gives more meaningful game experience.

 

[hit_fido]

The issue with that is Otto’s don’t give new players game experience. Zipping through multiple Past Lives, even with reduced XP requirements, gives more meaningful game experience.

OP's problem statement was "many people on the forums indicate they would like a change so that newer players can feel less left behind", not that new players lack experience. If lack of past lives is the major contributing factor to new players feeling behind and discontinuing the game, then the most direct and impactful change would be to just immediately give new players a bunch of past lives, lets say roughly 15 heroic and 15 epic. Then they start out less behind and would allegedly have more fun and stay with the game while they get the "more meaningful game experience" of actually playing.

 

[Blunt Hackett]

All I'd propose is ditching the heroic xp increases for reincarnation. There's so many past lives now, and I imagine it would increase the sales of hearts. The penalty is no longer necessary.

 

[rabidfox]

The penalty is no longer necessary.

But is it a penalty for being 3rd+ or is it a perk for being 1st/2nd? If you view it as a low life perk, then the 3rd+ XP is the normal curve and everyone is just advancing faster.