Repair while in elemental or undead form

[Chacka]

I'm curious as to why Warforged and Bladeforged don't receive any repairs when in elemental or undead forms. It would be more consistent if they were able to receive at least 50% of repairs, similar to how undead receive 50% healing from positive energy.

It's frustrating for Warforged players to lose their ability for self-repair completely when playing as a palemaster wizard or sorcerer.

 

[Smokewolf]

Because while in Undead "form" your no longer considered a Warforged. The same is true for when druid change form.

 

[Chacka]

Because while in Undead "form" your no longer considered a Warforged. The same is true for when druid change form.

You're not telling me anything new...

When you're undead, you're no longer considered living, yet you receive positive healing anyway.

What's even more amusing is that as an undead, you're typically supposed to be damaged by positive healing, but now you get healed by it.

With that logic in mind, I don't see why you shouldn't receive at least half of the repair when in undead form. This makes much more sense than halting healing from positive sources.

 

[Smokewolf]

You're not telling me anything new...

When you're undead, you're no longer considered living, yet you receive positive healing anyway.

What's even more amusing is that as an undead, you're typically supposed to be damaged by positive healing, but now you get healed by it.

With that logic in mind, I don't see why you shouldn't receive at least half of the repair when in undead form. This makes much more sense than halting healing from positive sources.

Whole idea behind a form is that you give up some abilities for others in the transformation. What your asking for would negate that bargain, making the cost / benefit of the forms very unbalanced.

 

[Chacka]

Whole idea behind a form is that you give up some abilities for others in the transformation. What your asking for would negate that bargain, making the cost / benefit of the forms very unbalanced.

Again, I know what you mean, but that's not the point.
Everyone who uses any undead form was once supposed to make such a trade-off and receive no healing from any positive spells.
But the developers decided to change that. All I'm saying is, with exactly the same logic, it should also be allowed to receive "healing" from repairs when you change your form to undead or elemental (also only 50% like undead from positive spells).
Just because maybe fewer players play Warforged or Bladeforged, this doesn't mean that their unique form of "heals" (repairs) is less important.

 

[Smokewolf]

Again, I know what you mean, but that's not the point.
Everyone who uses any undead form was once supposed to make such a trade-off and receive no healing from any positive spells.
But the developers decided to change that. All I'm saying is, with exactly the same logic, it should also be allowed to receive "healing" from repairs when you change your form to undead or elemental (also only 50% like undead from positive spells).
Just because maybe fewer players play Warforged or Bladeforged, this doesn't mean that their unique form of "heals" (repairs) is less important.

I can imagine that part of the "why" for undead forms, is that negative spell damage is often very limited in what it can affect. Thus a trade off was made to help make undead builds more survivable due to the reduced potential of negative DPS.

Problem I see with Warforged, is that It's a really old class in terms of when it was added to DDO. Which, really doesn't help it when most of its racial traits, enhancements and docents don't fit well within todays game. Though despite this, within the tree you have healers friend, which is there to more or less offset your problems with positive healing. That being said, your not changing form. The moment you do, all bets are off, as you no longer are considered a warforged.

Per the PM wiki: "You are considered Undead rather than your original type for the purposes of most effects."

Sure from a point of view this appears unfair. Though the form is a choice, not mandatory. And honestly, what's the benefit of undead form as a warforged? If your so focused on playing a warforged, then play one without a PM form. Odds are, you'll not miss PM at all, and by Epics have better self "repair" than anyone's death-aura.

Edit: My gripes with Warforged are about...

- The Racial tree not allowing a player to select intelligence vs. constitution. Having this option, would allow for Wizards to freely use warforged without gimping their DC's and spell points.

- Warforged armor feats, mucking up Dodge, PRR, and MRR in comparison to other similar non-warforge armors. This has been a long-term issue that the Dev's refuse to address.

 

[droid327]

Elemental forms, no. You actually ARE an Elemental there, there's nothing mechanical left to repair. Undead forms...yeah more of an argument there, since you're still a toaster on the inside, just wrapped in a magical Halloween costume - you arent actually truly undead.

But balance wise...Repair and Negative healing are largely redundant. There's no reason you would want to have both, even if you could use them together. It'd be disadvantageous trying to gear Power, Lore, and Amp for both types, and wasting spell slots that could go towards more useful options. Either run Undead and NEB when you need a burst of healing...or stay toaster, save the AP in PM, and hit Recon when you need it.

 

[Chacka]

Elemental forms, no. You actually ARE an Elemental there, there's nothing mechanical left to repair. Undead forms...yeah more of an argument there, since you're still a toaster on the inside, just wrapped in a magical Halloween costume - you arent actually truly undead.

But balance wise...Repair and Negative healing are largely redundant. There's no reason you would want to have both, even if you could use them together. It'd be disadvantageous trying to gear Power, Lore, and Amp for both types, and wasting spell slots that could go towards more useful options. Either run Undead and NEB when you need a burst of healing...or stay toaster, save the AP in PM, and hit Recon when you need it.

From my point of view, there is no difference. If you are in any undead form, you are also undead inside and outside. That's the idea of that form; you are a lich, a wraith, or a vampire, both externally and internally. I see no reason why one should see a Warforged in elemental form any differently than a Warforged in undead form or any other race in undead form. You have your initial ability to be repaired or healed, and the new form should halve your repairs exactly as heals are halved for other races in undead form.
That's just simple logic for me. Of course, the developers could refuse that anyhow because they think it is too strong for Warforged, but there is for sure no reason to say something like that is absurd for Warforged if positive healing is possible for undeads.
As I said already, in D&D, an undead is even supposed to be damaged by positive energy (heals/cures). For that reason an undead healed by positive energy is far more absurd than a Warforged in elemental form who receives repairs.

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

we cant buff warforged, can we?

 

[rabidfox]

Undead didn't use to healable. A big reason they get 50% healing is because a bunch of us players that run healers complained about it all the time (PM's also complained that they'd have to drop form, wait for someone to scroll them(or cast heals), and then go back into the shroud when doing high skulls). It was counter to grouping when raid healers couldn't heal certain party members. While I find it problematic if someone casts Animate Ally on me and I can't self-repair, it's not quite the same level of breaking things as preventing dedicated healers from doing their roles; one doesn't generally see a dedicated repairer who does nothing but repair the party.

 

[droid327]

From my point of view, there is no difference. If you are in any undead form, you are also undead inside and outside. That's the idea of that form; you are a lich, a wraith, or a vampire, both externally and internally. I see no reason why one should see a Warforged in elemental form any differently than a Warforged in undead form or any other race in undead form.

Well...this is simply untrue, from the game's lore:

"Shroud Toggle: You shroud yourself with Negative Energy and assume many of the traits of a lich."

You're not actually becoming a lich...you're just wrapping yourself - shrouding yourself - with negative energy to assume some lich-like qualities. If you were truly undead, you wouldnt be able to just switch it on and off like a light...it'd be a permanent feat, like Construct Essence.

Compare that to Wild Shape:

"Transform into a Water Elemental"

You actually become an Elemental, not just take on traits of an Elemental

 

[Archaic]

There is absolutely no reason for a warforged to go palemaster imo

 

[Lazuli]

There is absolutely no reason for a warforged to go palemaster imo

Well, I've done it in warforged racials. PM has more DC. But certainly not as a build for end game, numerically it would be very bad.

 

[droid327]

There is absolutely no reason for a warforged to go palemaster imo

18 Wiz/2 Arti, PM Inqui...WF can use Wallwatch docent with Adamantine Body for no MRR cap, since Wallwatch does not have a Medium/Heavy armor option

 

[GrayJedi AntiProPaladin]

the interesting thing I discovered about the Elemental Form is when my human druid turned into Fire elemental I could jump into the water and stay indefinitely underwater without needing to breathe and take Zero damage from being underwater...that's pretty "cool" and unexpected Heheheh

then I went over to The Twelve and tried to Swim/Dive in the Lava but as a Fire Elemental I was still taking damage, instead of I thought I would be completely immune and also getting healed
...that was a head scratcher...
but apparently based on the wiki that's just how it's coded (gets high fire absorb but it's Not complete immunity)....

https://ddowiki.com/page/Wild_Shape#Elemental_Forms

 

[Chacka]

There is absolutely no reason for a warforged to go palemaster imo

Indeed, but for me, even worse, there is even less reason for a Warforged to be a sorcerer unless you play an Eldritch Knight. After you reach level 20, there is basically no choice for any sorcerer; you are basically forced to use the Elemental form because bypassing any resistance or immunity against your best spells is too powerful to forego.
If you would repair 50% from your spells, it is still a big disadvantage, but at least you don't completely lose that ability.

 

[Chacka]

Well...this is simply untrue, from the game's lore:

"Shroud Toggle: You shroud yourself with Negative Energy and assume many of the traits of a lich."

You're not actually becoming a lich...you're just wrapping yourself - shrouding yourself - with negative energy to assume some lich-like qualities. If you were truly undead, you wouldnt be able to just switch it on and off like a light...it'd be a permanent feat, like Construct Essence.

Compare that to Wild Shape:

"Transform into a Water Elemental"

You actually become an Elemental, not just take on traits of an Elemental

Sorry, but for me, the fact remains that it is much more absurd for an undead to be healed by positive spells.
And in DDO, you also don't really look like an elemental if you are in any elemental form; you still look like a Warforged, very similar to any undead form that doesn't really change your appearance.
I think there is a very good reason to ask for such a change.
Not to mention that Warforged should finally get a real medium armor option, and that the light armor option for Warforged is the worst in DDO, even if you have to invest a feat for it. Normally, I would assume if a race has to invest more feats and/or APs into their armor, it should be better, not worse.
The same goes for no armor. Why do Warforged have arcane spell failure for plating?
I'll tell you why: Warforged are most likely supposed to wear light armor with Composite Plating, and with that logic, Warforged should have an MRR cap of 100 with Composite Plating.
Basically the same goes for Mithral body; this should be the medium armor option, but because this body is so light, a Warforged with Mithral body should be able to evade anyhow.
Yes, I know the developers might think a Warforged would be too powerful then, but it is for sure not too hard for them to add another body option that reflects medium armor, and the Warforged bodies should at least not be worse than normal armor for other races!

 

[Chacka]

Undead didn't use to healable. A big reason they get 50% healing is because a bunch of us players that run healers complained about it all the time (PM's also complained that they'd have to drop form, wait for someone to scroll them(or cast heals), and then go back into the shroud when doing high skulls). It was counter to grouping when raid healers couldn't heal certain party members. While I find it problematic if someone casts Animate Ally on me and I can't self-repair, it's not quite the same level of breaking things as preventing dedicated healers from doing their roles; one doesn't generally see a dedicated repairer who does nothing but repair the party.

I'm absolutely aware of that, but this doesn't change the fact for me that losing the ability to receive repairs has basically the same problems. After you lose that ability, other players cannot repair you either.

And just because it happens less often doesn't change the fact that this has the exact same logic to ask for 50% repairs for Warforged/Bladeforged in elemental or undead form as asking for 50% heals for undead from positive spells.

 

[Lazuli]

I'm absolutely aware of that, but this doesn't change the fact for me that losing the ability to receive repairs has basically the same problems. After you lose that ability, other players cannot repair you either.

And just because it happens less often doesn't change the fact that this has the exact same logic to ask for 50% repairs for Warforged/Bladeforged in elemental or undead form as asking for 50% heals for undead from positive spells.

It is not the same, because positive is the universal healing, 99% of the people who are going to cure you, are going to do so with positive.

Let's be honest, it's the charisma penalty that is the real detriment to a WF sorcerer in today's game, which is so demanding on DCs.

In reference to WF undead, remember that devs said their goal with alternative heals was that the toons could only be healed by two different sources (100% their alternative healing source, 50% positive). So to be cured with 50% repair they would have to lose that 50% positive, and it is not worth it. That 50% is so that others can heal you, for your self-healing you already have 100% negative. And I repeat, most of the external cures that you are going to receive will be positive healing.

 

[Chacka]

It is not the same, because positive is the universal healing, 99% of the people who are going to cure you, are going to do so with positive.

Let's be honest, it's the charisma penalty that is the real detriment to a WF sorcerer in today's game, which is so demanding on DCs.

In reference to WF undead, remember that devs said their goal with alternative heals was that the toons could only be healed by two different sources (100% their alternative healing source, 50% positive). So to be cured with 50% repair they would have to lose that 50% positive, and it is not worth it. That 50% is so that others can heal you, for your self-healing you already have 100% negative. And I repeat, most of the external cures that you are going to receive will be positive healing.

Right, for a Warforged sorcerer, the charisma penalty is trade-off enough to make up for the ability to repair yourself, and if the ability to repair is removed, you basically only have disadvantages playing a Warforged as a sorcerer.

And as I said, just because positive healing is the normal case, this doesn't change the fact that demanding 50% repair after changing your form has the same logic.

And if one now tells me it's not "realistic," this is a game, and I could also argue why is a fire elemental healed by positive energy and not only by fire? In fact, a sorcerer in a fire elemental form is instead even damaged by fire in DDO. For this reason, I can also say that a Warforged in a fire elemental form is only partially an elemental, much like an undead shroud.