Ruin / G-Ruin: Wizard
- Thread starter Smokewolf
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Lazuli
Well-known member
For me they are essential for a pure wizard who does not want to depend on a group. I don't always have the luxury of being able to group up, so I need to be able to kill bosses and reapers by myself.
Keep in mind that the wizard doesn't have a decent immunity bypass like the sorc. His spells also do less damage. These two feats do a lot for the wizard's self-sufficiency.
In fact, before the current EDs, these two feats were used mainly by wizards and warlocks.
Now, it depends on how you play. If you always play in a group and your group has dps well covered, then it may be worth it to go completely DC focused and go to tier 5 of the Magus for time stop.
Keep in mind that the wizard doesn't have a decent immunity bypass like the sorc. His spells also do less damage. These two feats do a lot for the wizard's self-sufficiency.
In fact, before the current EDs, these two feats were used mainly by wizards and warlocks.
Now, it depends on how you play. If you always play in a group and your group has dps well covered, then it may be worth it to go completely DC focused and go to tier 5 of the Magus for time stop.
Smokewolf
Well-known member
Hey Laz,
Great post... As for your question (How I intend to play), I'm spec'ing out as an Archimage / PM, focusing on force and spell penetration. I'm expecting my unbooted DC's to be in the range of 120-125, which is mostly limited by my current gear-set. I've not been running the newer Vecna content, so I expect a nice bump for DC's and spell-power in the coming weeks when that happens.
Edit: I tend to ditch TS unless I'm planning on raiding, as the group DPS is usually sufficient to handle R8-10 content without it.
-Smoke
It really depends on what you are building for. If you are focused on DC casting in group play you probably want epic spell focus, embolden, arcane insight and possibly epic spell penetration. This is a very niche build and probably not ideal for most people.
If you want a dps or swiss army knife build - ruin and greater ruin are ideal as there are just many places in the game where you want a quick damage burst.
Just keep in mind that if you go tier 5 in draconic, it will be difficult to make use of ruin/greater ruin against any enemy healed by your draconic element as there is no way toggle off the extra damage from ruin intensified.
With Vecna set and legendary might of the abishai set I find having multiple vecna sets I can swap to be highly beneficial - esp for wizard. The specific sets I use are:
- Legendary Vol's Infuence - my everyday gear for most content/situations with augment set for stat bonus
- Legendary Keeper's Coffin - when I need the spell pen more than the dps - a very niche swap set.
- Legendary Armaments of the Archons when I want to go tanky and get a 350+ AC, high PRR, high MRR, higher hp
I also use one legendary chrono ring and swap it based on the element I need most for the content and/or encounter.
For wizard I prefer the swiss army knife approach, but still want reasonable dps and high dc so my legendary feats are epic spell focus, embolden, ruin, greater ruin. With the ability to swap to keeper's coffin set and past life spell pen feats I feel comfortable without epic spell pen. Arcane Insight I wish I could fit in, but ruin/greater ruin is more important and a small dc bonus isn't critical if you are targeting the right enemies with the right spells.
If you want a dps or swiss army knife build - ruin and greater ruin are ideal as there are just many places in the game where you want a quick damage burst.
Just keep in mind that if you go tier 5 in draconic, it will be difficult to make use of ruin/greater ruin against any enemy healed by your draconic element as there is no way toggle off the extra damage from ruin intensified.
With Vecna set and legendary might of the abishai set I find having multiple vecna sets I can swap to be highly beneficial - esp for wizard. The specific sets I use are:
- Legendary Vol's Infuence - my everyday gear for most content/situations with augment set for stat bonus
- Legendary Keeper's Coffin - when I need the spell pen more than the dps - a very niche swap set.
- Legendary Armaments of the Archons when I want to go tanky and get a 350+ AC, high PRR, high MRR, higher hp
I also use one legendary chrono ring and swap it based on the element I need most for the content and/or encounter.
For wizard I prefer the swiss army knife approach, but still want reasonable dps and high dc so my legendary feats are epic spell focus, embolden, ruin, greater ruin. With the ability to swap to keeper's coffin set and past life spell pen feats I feel comfortable without epic spell pen. Arcane Insight I wish I could fit in, but ruin/greater ruin is more important and a small dc bonus isn't critical if you are targeting the right enemies with the right spells.
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droid327
Well-known member
I think the problem with Force/Untyped for Wizards is it works great for G/Ruin...but what do you do the rest of the time? Its an awful lot of investment just for 2 single-target spells plus Arcane Tempest. Which isnt enough to take care of all non-Undead Neg immunes, otherwise yeah it'd be more of a synergy then with PM.
If AM ever gets a proper overhaul to be a functional 1-32 Force casting tree, then G/Ruin would get a lot more value. Thats why its great for Warlocks, who are already naturally aligned to Force+Element casting.
If AM ever gets a proper overhaul to be a functional 1-32 Force casting tree, then G/Ruin would get a lot more value. Thats why its great for Warlocks, who are already naturally aligned to Force+Element casting.
Lazuli
Well-known member
In that case, take ruin and gRuin and go to tier 5 of the draconic for the intensified ruin. If you are specializing heavily in force, it doesn't make sense not to take these two feats, because as a wizard you have very few force spells that work. MM, Force missle, etc. are basically useless, disintegrate stops working in epics. With just Meteor Swarm, arcane tempest and ice storm (which do work) you don't get very far (bosses don't have the decency to stay still in your arcane tempest either lol). Archmage SLAs are good for heroics, but a big meh on epics. I also take arcane pulse. Although the feat needs an upgrade, it aligns well with my force gear and as a wizard this dot gives me help against bosses.
The DB nerf is a bad thing for us, but the draconic mantle is the best for the wizard, because it activates with any spell, and as a wizard you should be using a wide variety of spells, not just one or two elements.
Alternatively, you could take the Thorn mantle from the PA, but keep in mind that it only activates with acid and force spells. Believe me, you will have less dps no matter how much specialized you are in force, I have tested it thoroughly. But you can try it and see if you like it (spell point procs are very nice)
If you're looking to deal damage with your wizard, Magus is a trap and will continue to be so after the update. Cold and negative have too many immunities. It's good as a tertiary support tree, that's all.
There are people who discard Ruins and take Master of Knowledge, but I feel like I lose dps with this route. To maintain Master of Knowledge you have to use some SLAs in your rotation whose damage leaves a lot to be desired. What you gain in critical for your other spells you lose with the use of those SLAs, you also have to keep them active constantly, it is a mechanic that seems very impractical and annoying to me. I usually take embolden instead, for more DC. Master of Knowledge is also a valid build, don't misunderstand me. But I find it impractical, at least for my playstyle. With this option, PA mantle is good because you will be using continuously the SLAs.
My epic feats are epic spell focus necro, embolden, the 2 ruins, spell speciality enchantment (or illusion, as u prefer). I am a DC wizard who has given up a little DC to have a dps that allows me to play alone without problems. If I wanted to go more damage I would have to give up those two spell DC feats to take wellspring of power, but I prefer to keep my DC.
Smokewolf
Well-known member
Yeah, I've always been an advocate of Wizards being focused away from elemental damage that Sorcs use. Instead having Force, Evil, Rust, and Negative focus as well imbues to match. Besides, it's not like elemental is all that great for a Wizard without the immunity stripping for resistant mobs.
Lazuli
Well-known member
I do not share that point of view. I've played pnp for too many decades to be able to share it. For me, the wizard is the magic master who knows how to solve each situation with the appropriate instrument (spell). The sorc is a technician who knows how to do one or two things very well, the wizard is the engineer who has the overall vision and knows how to use his entire arsenal.
This is supposedly why sorcs know so few spells while wizards have a large spellbook and more spell slots than sorcs. Because they are generalists. Turning them into a specialist, albeit of a different nature than the sorc, seems to me to betray the tradition of the class, and waste what should be an advantage of the class (a big spellbook).
This is supposedly why sorcs know so few spells while wizards have a large spellbook and more spell slots than sorcs. Because they are generalists. Turning them into a specialist, albeit of a different nature than the sorc, seems to me to betray the tradition of the class, and waste what should be an advantage of the class (a big spellbook).
Smokewolf
Well-known member
Draconic is fine in some situations. Though I've gotten far more milage from Primal (thorn) as the mantel prok's on force damage, while also providing 200 free spell points every minute.
Yeah, I've tried Draconic and wasn't a fan of the elemental damage which is mostly being resisted. Previously, I've been taking Magus to T5 with Primal as the secondary. Surprisingly the DPS is quite good using just the SLA's (Arch and Primal) with Magnus to boost DC/ Penetration. Thinking that Ruin should fit nicely with th Primal / Arcane prok's.
Yeah, I've tried Draconic and wasn't a fan of the elemental damage which is mostly being resisted. Previously, I've been taking Magus to T5 with Primal as the secondary. Surprisingly the DPS is quite good using just the SLA's (Arch and Primal) with Magnus to boost DC/ Penetration. Thinking that Ruin should fit nicely with th Primal / Arcane prok's.
Smokewolf
Well-known member
My reasoning is that Sorcerers are elementalists, while Wizards are generalists.
Lazuli
Well-known member
If you are a generalist you should not stay away from elemental damage, but rather stay away from a specialization. Use all your spells, don't forget the elemental spells just because the sorc uses them better.
Lopnel
Member
Am currently playing such a build. You can check my previous Twitch streams. I am making slight changes while maintaining max values for ruin and greater ruin. Honestly though you may be better off focusing on DC casting more than DPS as a wizard. To each their own.
Ying
5000+ hours played
Ruin is great if you're T5 Draconic. It's a waste of two feats if you aren't. The elemental proc damage far outscales the force damage.
The issue with any build going one element and force is gearing. Even if you hit the lottery with a Gem of Many Facets having both Shaman's Fury + Biting Sands sets, good luck with gear tetris. You can't get everything you want like you can with a single-element build such as Sorc or Alchemist. It's one of the reasons I gave up on Warlock.
The issue with any build going one element and force is gearing. Even if you hit the lottery with a Gem of Many Facets having both Shaman's Fury + Biting Sands sets, good luck with gear tetris. You can't get everything you want like you can with a single-element build such as Sorc or Alchemist. It's one of the reasons I gave up on Warlock.
droid327
Well-known member
This would be a great paradigm if AM was designed around multi element casting, where you got bonuses for casting more types of spells, to offset the trade offs of having to support multiple elements or fall back on potency. Then the flexibility and spell selection for wizard would be more relevant and valuable.
Also it'd be way fun to sling fireballs and chain lightning and cone of cold all with equal effectiveness
But without that enhancement support, it just doesn't provide the right ROI. They overvalue having the ability to choose spells situationally...most situations simply call for the biggest number you can get, and that always favors specialization.
Lazuli
Well-known member
As I've said many times, the devs only design for specialist casters with bypass, so the wizard is at a tremendous disadvantage. But as a wizard you have no choice but to not specialize, because force is not a solution (wizard's force spells are a disaster as I said), negative has many immunities, and specializing in an elemental doesn't work either, because you don't have bypass. So you have no choice but to be a generalist. If you focus on a single damage element you're not going to go anywhere.
I can solo with my wizard in high reaper. So it works. It consists of knowing how to handle your spellbook very well, combining its instankills, CC and your damage spells depending on whether you can use one or the other. It's not much of a mystery because 100% of the classes can solo high reaper if you build them for it (care: 100% of classes, no 100% of builds: you need build for it). The wizard works in this sense like the others work, if you build for self-sufficiency and know how to handle yourself in that environment. But in terms of equipment and EDs, the wizard starts with a clear basic disadvantage: devs deny wizards a design to be a generalist and they deny them an authentic bypass too.
Although this is frustrating, don't try to make a wizard a specialist if you want to play solo. The wizard also does not have the chassis to be a specialist (without bypass the elemental specialization does not work, he does not have good force spells to fully specialize in this, if you have ever specialized in negative offensively you know what a nightmare it is), so at least take advantage of having a great spellbook. Even if it is with less damage, the immunities will not knock you out.
Lazuli
Well-known member
I agree. Ruin intensified is a must if you use those feats. Although if you want a wizard with damage, not taking the feats is not a realistic option either. A sorc (and any of the other A+ casters with bypass) has more options than a wizard in this regard.
And yes, gearing for force is a disaster. The devs are very partial to their favorite things. There are many stats that are very forgotten.
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
where is tilomere doing their bug exploit talk on the forums when you need them
Lazuli
Well-known member
yes... and no. Normal constructs, like the ones you can find in Raven's Bane or Security Details, easily fall to your elemental spells. Golems are the real problem for a wizard, and those cannot be instankilled with mass frog, because they have infinite SR.
Mass frog also doesn't help you against bosses and reapers. The wizard has many instantkills in his own class. One more isntakill is nice but not necessary. What the wizard needs is a help for those he can't instatkill, and that's why Ruin/gRuin were previously feats only for this class and warlock, and nowadays are still more necessary for these classes than for elemental specialists, who always have had more build possibilities.
Of course, I repeat, this is in case you are looking for a self-sufficient wizard or one who can help with dps in a group. If you're looking for an ultra specialist in DC, that's another story, you don't need spell damage for that build. The wizard's dps also does not work for push raiding (well, I would say that not even the A+ caster dps works in this sense, but the wizard even less so), and neither does it work for raids where a lot of sustained damage is needed (wizard does not have the mana stamina for that).