Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.
- Thread starter Bazgrim
- Start date
seph1roth5
Well-known member
that's the whole point of multiclassing though. And stuff scaling by level is the least important part you're giving up usually.
That's literally the point of multi-classing. If I'm a wizard 2/fighter 18, there is no reason I should be able to cast spells like a level 20 wizard while getting all the benefits of also being a level 20 fighter. Otherwise, we might as well all just be 20 cleric/20 fighter/20 rogue/20 wizards ... etc.
But you're already only getting access to level 1 spells at that point. And you're also limiting your access to enhancements. If I've invested levels into a class, then anything I have access to with that investment should remain useful throughout the life of that character.
It is useful, but only at the level you are in that class. You make the choice to multiclass knowing the opportunities and the limitations.
No, I'm saying you're asking for a change to a fundamental way that D&D is built, which should never happen.
The game is already drastically different from PnP. Things scale so much higher. You aren't completely gimped from multiclassing a caster in PnP whereas it's almost never a good idea in this game to splash more than 2 levels as a caster, largely due to the class scaling issue. I think it would open up a lot more interesting build possibilities without being overpowered. In fact, even with this change it would still be suboptimal, just not drastically so.
calouscaine
Grouchy Vet
I play a multi class caster, have never had an issue on ddo with the build. Typically I do between 8-12 levels of wizard, some times three depending on the build I want to go with, then splash in either some rogue, dark hunter, or arty, then toss in a dash of warlock or fighter. I build my levels around what I want to use in the enhancement trees and the level of spells I want. I don't even have an issue doing r1-3 most of the time, solo. (and that's on a first lifer)
The character building process in this game can be really simple or complex, all depends on the player really. But, I would not advocate that over all level should equate to class level. I would suggest being able to take additional levels in a class in epics though, as an option if multi classed - at least up to level 20 in said class. Probably won't happen though since the whole leveling system would have to be reworked. . .to ya know. . .be more like 3.5.
The character building process in this game can be really simple or complex, all depends on the player really. But, I would not advocate that over all level should equate to class level. I would suggest being able to take additional levels in a class in epics though, as an option if multi classed - at least up to level 20 in said class. Probably won't happen though since the whole leveling system would have to be reworked. . .to ya know. . .be more like 3.5.
Chacka
Well-known member
Also, in my opinion, which I suggested years ago, everything should scale with the character level rather than the individual class levels. This is the whole point of multiclassing!
It doesn't make sense that if you have 3 levels in wizard and 17 levels in fighter, you can only cast a web spell as if you were a level 3 wizard. A multiclass character should not be a kind of "schizophrenic" character with a level 3 wizard and a level 17 fighter. They are a single character with levels in both wizard and fighter, but overall, they are still a level 20 character, not a level 17 fighter and level 3 wizard.
I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend, but it simply doesn't make much sense! If things are meant to scale, they should scale with the character level.
I can only assume that the initial idea of multiclassing was that there should be no scaling with individual class levels, or at least the impact of that scaling should be minimal, providing only a small advantage.
If you multiclass and end up with a multitude of abilities, but none of them work properly, there is no point in multiclassing.
Some players argue that everything is fine because they multiclass and it is still effective. However, let's be honest here, it only works because they utilize abilities from different classes in their multiclass build that actually function well.
If, for example, you multiclass as a 2nd level rogue and evasion only worked against traps in level 4 quests and you could only disable traps in level 4 quests, and evasion only worked against level 4 monsters, you would not multiclass two rog level for evasion and doing traps. And then you would see how nonsensical that is!
An actual perfect example of how nonsensical it currently is can be seen in the Bane of Undead enhancement in the Exalte Angle Epic Destiny. If you choose that enhancement, you gain the Turn Undead feat, which scales with your paladin level. However, this feat is only useful if you are not a paladin, as a paladin's level is already inherently high enough to have the same effect. As a result, you end up with a feat that doesn't serve its intended purpose of turning undead (destroying them or making them cower).
In essence, with a level 32 character, you are turning undead as if you were a level 0 paladin. That is so sad that it's almost funny.
In contrast, the Hands of the Sentinel enhancement in the Unyielding Sentinel epic destiny scales with the character level, making it actually useful. I doubt anyone can seriously claim that it is overpowered for that reason. Even if it had the additional feature, which I consider unnecessarily powerful, of scaling with your constitution score, but only if it is higher than your charisma.
Those who predict doom in this scenario are simply wrong.
If the general rule were for abilities to scale with character level, it would not be an issue! However, I think if I had the power to decide, I would remove all scaling in DDO and balance it without any class or character level scaling.
It doesn't make sense that if you have 3 levels in wizard and 17 levels in fighter, you can only cast a web spell as if you were a level 3 wizard. A multiclass character should not be a kind of "schizophrenic" character with a level 3 wizard and a level 17 fighter. They are a single character with levels in both wizard and fighter, but overall, they are still a level 20 character, not a level 17 fighter and level 3 wizard.
I don't understand why this is so difficult to comprehend, but it simply doesn't make much sense! If things are meant to scale, they should scale with the character level.
I can only assume that the initial idea of multiclassing was that there should be no scaling with individual class levels, or at least the impact of that scaling should be minimal, providing only a small advantage.
If you multiclass and end up with a multitude of abilities, but none of them work properly, there is no point in multiclassing.
Some players argue that everything is fine because they multiclass and it is still effective. However, let's be honest here, it only works because they utilize abilities from different classes in their multiclass build that actually function well.
If, for example, you multiclass as a 2nd level rogue and evasion only worked against traps in level 4 quests and you could only disable traps in level 4 quests, and evasion only worked against level 4 monsters, you would not multiclass two rog level for evasion and doing traps. And then you would see how nonsensical that is!
An actual perfect example of how nonsensical it currently is can be seen in the Bane of Undead enhancement in the Exalte Angle Epic Destiny. If you choose that enhancement, you gain the Turn Undead feat, which scales with your paladin level. However, this feat is only useful if you are not a paladin, as a paladin's level is already inherently high enough to have the same effect. As a result, you end up with a feat that doesn't serve its intended purpose of turning undead (destroying them or making them cower).
In essence, with a level 32 character, you are turning undead as if you were a level 0 paladin. That is so sad that it's almost funny.
In contrast, the Hands of the Sentinel enhancement in the Unyielding Sentinel epic destiny scales with the character level, making it actually useful. I doubt anyone can seriously claim that it is overpowered for that reason. Even if it had the additional feature, which I consider unnecessarily powerful, of scaling with your constitution score, but only if it is higher than your charisma.
Those who predict doom in this scenario are simply wrong.
If the general rule were for abilities to scale with character level, it would not be an issue! However, I think if I had the power to decide, I would remove all scaling in DDO and balance it without any class or character level scaling.
Makes perfect sense to me. I would expect a character who practiced casting spells for 20 levels fulltime to throw a stronger web or magic missile than one who mostly swung his sword and only cast spells on the weekend for 3 levels.
Natashaelle
Time Bandit
This would amount to 1) basing DDO on 5E, including its currently rather poor multiclassing rules (true its BAB and AC rules are a lot better, though 5E given its structure really ought to have a level zero for each race + background combo as a starting point) 2) ruining multiclassing as such 3) switching from DDO to DDO 2.0, and pretty much rewriting the game from scratch.
No thanks !!
No thanks !!
Except that if you also have 10 Epic levels and 2 Legendary, then you don't. That looks like a pretty dodgy build BTW ...
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
I bet no one can come up with an example where this would actually be unbalanced or bad.
As for not working like pnp, in pnp you can get the "practiced spellcaster" feat to easily increase your caster level when multiclassing.
As for not working like pnp, in pnp you can get the "practiced spellcaster" feat to easily increase your caster level when multiclassing.
Chacka
Well-known member
The example you provided doesn't make much sense to me either. Let's imagine a wizard/fighter who is designed around the concept of casting a web spell to trap monsters and then defeating them while they're caught. Considering this character casts the spell daily throughout their entire life, it's reasonable to assume they would gain significant practice and proficiency with it.
In real life, we learn things in school or university, but true expertise comes with practice and experience in our chosen profession.
As I said already if there would be NO scaling with the class level it would make much more sense to me, you get a ability and then you can use it and you can make it work if you put enough effort into it (items that make it better), that's it!
But if you have scaling it should be with the character level.
And you should see a multiclass character as a new class, constructed from a "building kit" of sorts. Therefore, a level 3 wizard and 17 fighter is neither just a fighter nor solely a wizard. They are a hybrid class, a fighter-wizard, created by combining elements of both classes.
Maybe this demands some kind of out of the box (the current situation) thinking.
Kipp
Well-known member
I think maybe a feat once you've taken like 5 levels in a class to count half your character level as class levels for the purpose of feats/abilities/spells/ect (Not enhancements tho) would be a boon to the game, without many downsides but multiclassing should have positives and negatives, the point isn't just to take random classes to get random stuff, the whole point is to build a cohesive build. Multiclassing comes with sacrifice, I think "sacrificing" a feat slot would be a fair deal.
Last edited:
Kipp
Well-known member
I mean if you start looking at trying to justify game rules by real world logic, all the mechanics fall apart. In DnD (and by extension DDO) your class level is a representation of your overall experience, not your starting experience. 5 wizard and 15 fighter means you've spent 25% of your career practicing magic, and thus you have the ability and stuff to go with it. In RL you can learn and develop as many skills as you want, but there are no rule keepers in rl attempting to keep things balanced
Chacka
Well-known member
On some things, it makes a lot of sense to refer to the rest of the D&D universe. For example, when it comes to the question of whether a level 20 character is considered epic or if level 21 is the first epic level (after obtaining your first epic character level).
However, in general, I prefer to have my own thoughts. If you ask me, I would remove all scaling from DDO. A character should just become stronger by acquiring new and possibly more powerful abilities.
Yes, you should receive better things at level 20 compared to level 1, but everything you gain at level 1 should still be useful also in level 32!
We don't necessarily need a DDO 2.0, but I can imagine a significant overhaul that could greatly improve DDO. One aspect of this overhaul could be making DDO much more object-oriented than it currently is. For example, a rat in DDO should always be a rat. You would encounter the exact same rat in a level 1 quest and a level 32 quest, but in the level 1 quest, the rat would be the "boss," whereas in the level 32 quest, they would only pose a threat when encountered in a large group, with the "boss" being, for instance, a dragon.
Following that logic (and the title of the thread that nothing should scale with class level), this would also include HP, SP, saves and BAB.
So the lvl 3 Wizard/Lvl 17 Fighter would have SP like a lvl 20 wizard, cast his spells like a lvl 20 wizard, have the will save of a lvl 20 wizard, but at the same time have the BAB, the HP and the fortitude save of a lvl 20 fighter.
Why not throw in 3 levels of cleric as well ? Your wizard spells would still be as powerful, your Fighter attacks as well, but now you´ll also be able to easily heal yourself.
So the lvl 3 Wizard/Lvl 17 Fighter would have SP like a lvl 20 wizard, cast his spells like a lvl 20 wizard, have the will save of a lvl 20 wizard, but at the same time have the BAB, the HP and the fortitude save of a lvl 20 fighter.
Why not throw in 3 levels of cleric as well ? Your wizard spells would still be as powerful, your Fighter attacks as well, but now you´ll also be able to easily heal yourself.
Chacka
Well-known member
Maybe I haven't expressed myself clearly enough. The main point I'm trying to make is that using examples from real life to support an argument can be problematic because it's possible to find real-life examples that prove the exact opposite.I mean if you start looking at trying to justify game rules by real world logic, all the mechanics fall apart. In DnD (and by extension DDO) your class level is a representation of your overall experience, not your starting experience. 5 wizard and 15 fighter means you've spent 25% of your career practicing magic, and thus you have the ability and stuff to go with it. In RL you can learn and develop as many skills as you want, but there are no rule keepers in rl attempting to keep things balanced
In my opinion, multiclassing only makes logical sense if the abilities you gain are useful. Otherwise, no one would choose to multiclass, as it would result in a character with no practical value. Can you honestly say that such a scenario makes sense?
Currently, multiclassing can work, but only when you select abilities from classes that either scale with your character level or don't require scaling.
For instance, multiclassing with 2 levels of the rogue class makes a lot of sense because the evasion feature functions the same way for a level 20 rogue as it does for a level 2 rogue/18 wizard.
Additionally, this works because you are allowed to increase your skill level in disable device at the wizard class trainer. If a 2 rogue/18 wizard were limited to a maximum disable device skill of 6 and evasion didn't work in a level 20 quest, it wouldn't make much sense.
To me, this is a matter of pure logic.
- Status