Strikethrough vs. Doublestrike or both

[fireball241_jt]

Building a Melee Cleric. PDK Mauls CLR15/PAL4/FTR1 Charisma based with Fey. RS, SD, Ken Haste8. FOTW and EA mainly.

His Strikethrough is 170%. I did just take Doublestrike ED feat for 5%. I was thinking maybe something else would be better. Maybe ED Spell Power Positive. This character does not have the greatest gear yet. No past lives, but seems like a good one to run endgame on a first life. Probably not better than R5, but who knows with gear?

So in another thread I was convinced DS might be the best. Now with FOTW I have a choice. More DS or ST. DS has some gear choices. ST does not seem to and KOTC I don't have enough points for it.

It seems for ST if you are close to the next % for another guaranteed hit then it is a better choice. Also on the DPS calc it seems ST gave more damage on multi targets than DS. In this case at 170% getting past 200% would be the why to go.

When a DS happens is there a ST to a mob or o another hit to only the single target?

 

[Palumtra]

Doublestrike is is the clear winner in my opinion: you'll kill stuff faster, and it benefits you on single/low target count situations where striketrough is "wasted", 170-200% striketrough should be enough for most content. Haste boost is also very good if you can get it (Vistani Tree, which can also give you Deflect Arrows).
Doublestrike doesn't give you extra cleave, but can proc on targets you hit trough cleave, but this only has an effect on damage, it will not cleave further.
I'm not seeing the value of the 4 Paladin levels that much here to be honest as your save boost is limited based on your paladin levels, and you already get CHA trance in the Warpriest tree.
I'd either go 1Ftr/19 Pala OR Cleric (or pure if you have a spare +1 LR Heart, but that's up to you).
Addendum: Paladin synergizes more for being CHA based and is a better melee damage dealer in general than Cleric.

 

[fireball241_jt]

Doublestrike is is the clear winner in my opinion: you'll kill stuff faster, and it benefits you on single/low target count situations where striketrough is "wasted", 170-200% striketrough should be enough for most content. Haste boost is also very good if you can get it (Vistani Tree, which can also give you Deflect Arrows).
Doublestrike doesn't give you extra cleave, but can proc on targets you hit trough cleave, but this only has an effect on damage, it will not cleave further.
I'm not seeing the value of the 4 Paladin levels that much here to be honest as your save boost is limited based on your paladin levels, and you already get CHA trance in the Warpriest tree.
I'd either go 1Ftr/19 Pala OR Cleric (or pure if you have a spare +1 LR Heart, but that's up to you).
Addendum: Paladin synergizes more for being CHA based and is a better melee damage dealer in general than Cleric.

What do you mean by Cleave? What do you mean by CHR trance in Warpriest tree. Not finding that?

I have Warpriest just for Divine Might CHR. I have 8 Kensei Haste Boosts and DM are clicked for mobs.
Vistani limits Haste to 5. Haste Boost is critical. Shows with regular Haste and Haste Boost from 15% to 45% attack speed.

As a returning player I used LR for a lvl28 PDK Maul pure Cleric 20 at end game with Falconry. Axel build. With no past lives and lame gear he died way too easy taken to lvl30. Have an old Human with this build CLR15/PAL4/FTR1 and he survives better at lvl30. Saves help.

I might go CLR14/PAL5/FTR1. Holy Aura is lame. Only give +1 to saves. Why not +4?
I was surprised by that. Lvl8 spells are not worth it.

I might drop RS T5 and go SD T5. But I like Radiance and Divine Energy Resist is cheaper to use in RS than US ED.

This guy can not always sit with Red names at end game or mid Reaper. Lame gear and no past lives. So more of just a healing role and hang back.

EA and Angelic Charge is not for charging. It is for running!

 

[Palumtra]

Cleave = Striketrough , I didn't meant the feat.
Warpriest and Knight of the Chalice both have Divine Might (otherwise known as CHA trance).
Paladin gets extra saves from Charisma, a strong burst heal (Lay on Hands, worth picking up the extra charges from Sacred Defender) Exalted/Smite Evil and unique stacking buffs from their spell list (Zeal[+10% doublestrike/shot!], Righteous Command, Angelskin, Holy Sword).
Keep in mind that Paladin needs 14 Wisdom to be able to cast all of his spells but you can get those from items/buffs (Paladin can also cast Owl's Wisdom)
For a first lifer I'd still recommend Paladin more than Cleric.
Your 3rd option is Favored Soul if you have access for it, which also automatically gets either CHA or WIS to hit/damage and has access to the Warpriest tree (called War soul but it's the exact same) and thus to divine might.
Cleric is more of a spellcaster than phyiscal attacker by default. It can work, but without past lives and tomes it's not that good, and has very little synergy with charisma (Turn Undead, pretty much).
If you still wanna stick with Cleric I'd rather go Dark Apostate as the undead form gives immunities to a lot of annoyances and 100% fortification along with + 2 WIS /CON and a bit of extra damage via the imbue.

 

[unbongwah]

I like to aim for 200% Strikethrough because I want that guaranteed third strike. Fortunately a paladin can (almost) hit that by level 22: 20% base +20% Improved Second Strikes + 120% THF x3 + 30% PTHF = 190% Strikethrough. That extra 10% can come from Wild Weapons or Hail of Blows (also gives +3% doublestrike). Not that more than 200% ST is a bad thing but at that point, I would shift to focusing on adding more doublestrike.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Your target for Doublestrike should be 70% base +30% from reaper boost (or 100% base so you can use a different boost). Since reaper boost is active 3/4 of the time, any additional doublestrike over 70% is worth that much less.

If you aren't hitting this, doublestrike is almost always going to outperform strikethrough. A 10% chance to hit a 3rd target is almost always less damage than +6% doublestrike multiplied by the number of targets hit.

If you already have 70% or 100% then its debatable and depends whether you want slightly more single target dps when boosts run out or more damage in AOE.

 

[fireball241_jt]

Your target for Doublestrike should be 70% base +30% from reaper boost (or 100% base so you can use a different boost). Since reaper boost is active 3/4 of the time, any additional doublestrike over 70% is worth that much less.

If you aren't hitting this, doublestrike is almost always going to outperform strikethrough. A 10% chance to hit a 3rd target is almost always less damage than +6% doublestrike multiplied by the number of targets hit.

If you already have 70% or 100% then its debatable and depends whether you want slightly more single target dps when boosts run out or more damage in AOE.

How do you get 70% double strike on a PDK Maul 2HW build?

 

[fireball241_jt]

Cleave = Striketrough , I didn't meant the feat.
Warpriest and Knight of the Chalice both have Divine Might (otherwise known as CHA trance).
Paladin gets extra saves from Charisma, a strong burst heal (Lay on Hands, worth picking up the extra charges from Sacred Defender) Exalted/Smite Evil and unique stacking buffs from their spell list (Zeal[+10% doublestrike/shot!], Righteous Command, Angelskin, Holy Sword).
Keep in mind that Paladin needs 14 Wisdom to be able to cast all of his spells but you can get those from items/buffs (Paladin can also cast Owl's Wisdom)
For a first lifer I'd still recommend Paladin more than Cleric.
Your 3rd option is Favored Soul if you have access for it, which also automatically gets either CHA or WIS to hit/damage and has access to the Warpriest tree (called War soul but it's the exact same) and thus to divine might.
Cleric is more of a spellcaster than phyiscal attacker by default. It can work, but without past lives and tomes it's not that good, and has very little synergy with charisma (Turn Undead, pretty much).
If you still wanna stick with Cleric I'd rather go Dark Apostate as the undead form gives immunities to a lot of annoyances and 100% fortification along with + 2 WIS /CON and a bit of extra damage via the imbue.

I just ran my first R6. I mostly healed. Survivability was good. Seems like everyone needed a Healer. Paladin included. Even the Druids trying to Zerg around. If you are gonna argue Paladin is better than Cleric, well that is a no brainer cause they are way overpowered now. Current favored of the Devs and it always changes. A more viable argument would be Favored Soul over Cleric.

Domains help. War Domain with Holy Sword makes Cleric more melee. Haste Boost, PDK Maul works well with FOTW.

Anyone can melee now with some FOTW, and solo content. Adrenaline with 75%x2 to damage and some knockdown.

High Reaper needs a healer. Seems self healing just doesn't cut it?

Are you saying a Paladin can heal the party? I saw that Lay On Hand AOE can help I guess.

 

[Palumtra]

Reaper healing has been redisgned recently, out of combat healing for yourself is no longer reduced drastically.
Paladin can also heal self and others via Smite Evil, Consecrate (Divine Crusader ED) but if your goal is to go for both melee and healing others then yeah, Favored Soul and Cleric covers that better overall. It all depends what's your aim with the build is.
Favored Soul is probabbly the best main healer in the game at the moment, with Cleric and Alchemist being close behind it.
The problem with being a dedicated healer is that low-mid reaper (1-6ish) is still being breezed trough by people who know what they are doing.
At the end of the day, play what you enjoy the most, as pretty much all classes are viable.

 

[Xgya]

Are you saying a Paladin can heal the party? I saw that Lay On Hand AOE can help I guess.

In low skulls, anyone can heal the party.
Anyone in the party should at least have SOME way to heal anyone else, and that tiny bit is enough on R1-5
The only times you start needing a bigger, better healer is in much higher skulls, where the general damage penalty starts making what's usually overkill on healing in every other difficulty suddenly become useful.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

How do you get 70% double strike on a PDK Maul 2HW build?

Base doublestrike available to all classes is around 60 depending on gear/pastlives:
15 from past lives
16-17 enhancement
6-7 insight
3 quality
3 profane
15 artifact
5 epic doublestrike feat

The remaining doublestrike can come from a variety of sources:
5-10 from vistani
10 from warpriest, or 15 from warsoul, or 10 from zeal as a paladin
3-8 from grandmaster of flowers
3-9 from fury of the wild
6 from LD or DC
5 from shadowdancer
sentient filigrees/sets
cannith combat infusion or bard songs
some races have doublestike bonuses
etc...

https://ddowiki.com/page/Doublestrike

 

[fireball241_jt]

Reaper healing has been redisgned recently, out of combat healing for yourself is no longer reduced drastically.
Paladin can also heal self and others via Smite Evil, Consecrate (Divine Crusader ED) but if your goal is to go for both melee and healing others then yeah, Favored Soul and Cleric covers that better overall. It all depends what's your aim with the build is.
Favored Soul is probabbly the best main healer in the game at the moment, with Cleric and Alchemist being close behind it.
The problem with being a dedicated healer is that low-mid reaper (1-6ish) is still being breezed trough by people who know what they are doing.
At the end of the day, play what you enjoy the most, as pretty much all classes are viable.

Yeah I saw that in R6. Toons in combat were barely healing themselves. Enough to give me time to see them and heal them. Most notable were the 2 Druids. I was wondering why they didn't seem to heal well. I was able to hanging back from the fray.

Aura healing def scaled down as usual in Reaper. Not sure it changed based on positioning.

So how does the computer know who is in combat? Is it aggro or area based?

With no past lives the Pally levels are an easy way to give more survivability. With no past lives and 4 year old gear my build is far from a Max/Min.

It is a Strike through build. Most Bosses have a mob with them.

Every time I stop ST to click on a special attack for a Boss I lose Mob ST DPS. The investment in Pally click attacks for a two hand build is a lot of work and takes away from healing clicks. The Haste Boosts and having 8 from FTR1 Kensei is more click cool downs. Looking at cooldowns is hard enough with FOTW Adrenaline and BM timing on top of that. Anymore click attacks cooldowns is too much. I did KOTC and the synergy was horrible. Way too much. Takes away from healing and looking at Red bars of the party.

Now the automatic healing that is a side affect from attacks is nice, but not sure that is a game changer in high Reaper.

 

[Xgya]

So how does the computer know who is in combat? Is it aggro or area based?

Whenever your character goes into combat stance and you hear the music change.
Generally, it's because you're on a monster's aggro list. Not necessarily at the top of that list, just somewhere on that list.
The monster has detected you somehow, and its aggro has not reset since.

 

[fireball241_jt]

Since we are on the subject of Pally overpower I think it is kind of a joke they get True Rez. I would rather see them have better Aura with maybe a Radiance AOE

 

[fireball241_jt]

This was very informative stuff. Thanks