Toughness

[YeeboF]

It seems a bit strange for combat style feats to generally add more hit points (heroic durability [free to all characters at creation] + combat style feats of your choice) than the feats that literally do nothing but add hit points (toughness).

Because of this, the combat style feats feats are now being taken on builds solely for hit points in the place of toughness feats.* For example, see Strimtom's Blightcaster build that included Shield mastery feats on a character that I imagine would never even equip a shield (or would do so only very situationally):

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/strimtoms-hardcore-build-guides-season-8.458/

It seems like it would make more sense for toughness to add 34/33/33% more hit points each time you take it, to a max of 100%. That way there would be a reason for the feats to exist but you still wouldn't be able to pass a 100% bonus.

Apologies in advance if this has been addressed already and I am simply unaware of it (I did at least check the wiki).

*Edit: Apparently it wasn't self evident this was the point I was trying to make with this example . . .

 

[rabidfox]

Once you've taken the 4x limit for combat styles towards HP (which was to help DPS melee survive) then you take toughness to get even more (if you're going tanky vs taking other feats towards damage). It works out pretty well overall.

 

[somenewnoob]

Toughness is a feat that hasn't aged well with all the HP bloat. Back when if you had 600 hp, YOU were the tank, it was a must have feat for almost everybody.
It could definitely use some love to bring it up to modern HP levels as it just isn't very useful anymore. I haven't used it in ages.

 

[CBDunk]

The combat style feat bonuses to hit points are so good that a lot of non-melee builds take them.

 

[Coffey]

The combat style feat bonuses to hit points are so good that a lot of non-melee builds take them.

Like ranged builds with 6 Ranger levels.

 

[Dunspartacus]

Toughness could definitely use some love, as could a bunch of other old feats. Similar to all the spells I never pick, I feel like I use the same 25% of feats across lives due to there being so many outliers on the lower end of functionality. Would love to see the devs go and touch up some of the less used stuff if they ever get some time.

 

[voenixa121]

Add a 5% competence bonus to HP to toughness. Then it will be taken by non-melee, but won't add to HP bloat.

 

[Anurakh]

Shouldn't this thread be in the Suggestions subforum?

 

[LunaCee]

Initially the feat was taken by almost all builds at least once because it was a prerequisite for taking additional enhancements for even more hit points. So it was a one feat cost for a benefit of fifty to sixty HP. With the current way the game works I would not suggest increasing the HP gains from the feat. Instead I'd suggest that merely giving the player the current benefits of the feat and an additional 10 PRR per copy of the feat acquired.

Handing all characters a way to lay hands on some additional PRR that has a feat cost that doesn't also simultaneously count for combat style bonuses doesn't seem excessive. Plus its available as a monk bonus feat, and cloth wearing monks would love to be able to lay hands on some extra PRR given they are denied armor and shield sources of it. And it would be hard to really abuse this on pure casters like sorcerors because taking more than one toughness feat starts to really eat at the critical metamagic and spell DC feats. Might make for a couple funny Eldritch Knight wizard builds that can afford to squeeze in two to three toughness feats though.

 

[haagmaar123]

Initially the feat was taken by almost all builds at least once because it was a prerequisite for taking additional enhancements for even more hit points. So it was a one feat cost for a benefit of fifty to sixty HP. With the current way the game works I would not suggest increasing the HP gains from the feat. Instead I'd suggest that merely giving the player the current benefits of the feat and an additional 10 PRR per copy of the feat acquired.

Handing all characters a way to lay hands on some additional PRR that has a feat cost that doesn't also simultaneously count for combat style bonuses doesn't seem excessive. Plus its available as a monk bonus feat, and cloth wearing monks would love to be able to lay hands on some extra PRR given they are denied armor and shield sources of it. And it would be hard to really abuse this on pure casters like sorcerors because taking more than one toughness feat starts to really eat at the critical metamagic and spell DC feats. Might make for a couple funny Eldritch Knight wizard builds that can afford to squeeze in two to three toughness feats though.

no we dont need anymore player power bloat chars are alrdy way overpowered!

 

[somenewnoob]

Like ranged builds with 6 Ranger levels.

Heh yep. I enjoy my free combat style feats on my ranged ranger very much!

 

[Speed]

Combat style feats are for melee character who supposed to have more hp.
They also have requirements, so pure spellcaster may not have access until some investment:
- Shield Mastery - Shield Proficiency feat, bab 8, bab 13
- Single Weapon Fighting - base balance 2, 4 and bab 6, 7 and bab 11
- Two Handed Fighting - base strength 15, 17 and bab 6, 17 and bab 11
- Two Weapon Fighting - base dexterity 15, 17 and bab 6, 17 and bab 11
Tomes can help, but progress is slowed by bab.
Toughness has no requirements, can be taken by everyone at any level and can be addition to combat style feats if someone wants even more hp.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Remove the HP from the combat feats.

 

[Speed]

Remove the HP from the combat feats.

So new players on melee characters will have even harder times?
I would keep it since spellcasters are already strong in power.

 

[Ahpuch]

Once you've taken the 4x limit for combat styles towards HP (which was to help DPS melee survive) then you take toughness to get even more (if you're going tanky vs taking other feats towards damage). It works out pretty well overall.

It works in the same way the tax system works. It could be streamlined and cleaned up significantly with a far better result but those entrenched in the current system might not like the change.

The model for making melee more survivable with extra hit points was a solution but not the best solution. And it has a workable implementation but probably not the best implementation. I have no expectation that it can be changed at this point so we will have to go with "works out pretty well".

 

[YeeboF]

Combat style feats are for melee character who supposed to have more hp.
They also have requirements, so pure spellcaster may not have access until some investment:
- Shield Mastery - Shield Proficiency feat, bab 8, bab 13
- Single Weapon Fighting - base balance 2, 4 and bab 6, 7 and bab 11
- Two Handed Fighting - base strength 15, 17 and bab 6, 17 and bab 11
- Two Weapon Fighting - base dexterity 15, 17 and bab 6, 17 and bab 11
Tomes can help, but progress is slowed by bab.
Toughness has no requirements, can be taken by everyone at any level and can be addition to combat style feats if someone wants even more hp.

Sure, which is why shield mastery and SWF are the feats most often used this way. Most classes can use at least use light shields and will get up to BAB 11 eventually. Only arcane casters really get locked out, and in the case of a wizard or alch (int based classes) it's pretty likely they can spare points for some balance if they want to get the first two SWF feats (or all three for an alch).

 

[Speed]

Sure, which is why shield mastery and SWF are the feats most often used this way. Most classes can use at least use light shields and will get up to BAB 11 eventually. Only arcane casters really get locked out, and in the case of a wizard or alch (int based classes) it's pretty likely they can spare points for some balance if they want to get the first two SWF feats (or all three for an alch).

Yeah, wizard and alchemist also have more feat slots.
Still, I would keep that hp in combat style feats and think about some improvement to currently outdated toughness, but truth is that there are many feats that need it like weapon focus with +1 attack when we have many times higher accuracy augments (or item effect) that work with any weapon, so actually feats need revamp in general.

 

[YeeboF]

Yeah, wizard and alchemist also have more feat slots.
Still, I would keep that hp in combat style feats and think about some improvement to currently outdated toughness.

Completely agree, melee especially need the HP that come with those feats. I certainly wouldn't want to see them nerfed.