Tumble changes?

[Sarandra]

It's only useful for avoiding "big hits", a trap, or if you're a tank. Otherwise, tumble effectively now is completely useless for anything but.

I tested that, it doesn't even do that. No damage is being avoided.

Also you can't chain the tumbles, making it very awkward. With 2 charges and the ability to chain them you might be able to effectively tumble out of the way or range *some* of the times... but it's basically useless as implemented now.

Obviously this was never tested by people that knew what the legitimate use cases were for tumble to see if it was still useful that way.

Perhaps bringing back the chaining and having more charges (around 5 or so), could make this useful again.

 

[DDO Gaming]

I tested that, it doesn't even do that. No damage is being avoided.

Also you can't chain the tumbles, making it very awkward. With 2 charges and the ability to chain them you might be able to effectively tumble out of the way or range *some* of the times... but it's basically useless as implemented now.

Obviously this was never tested by people that knew what the legitimate use cases were for tumble to see if it was still useful that way.

Perhaps bringing back the chaining and having more charges (around 5 or so), could make this useful again.

Its why I think 10 charges with a 30 second cooldown to reset is a better solution. It makes tumble useable for tumbling through problematic situations (eg traps) whilst avoiding its abuse

 

[Foaly's_Pub]

Its why I think 10 charges with a 30 second cooldown to reset is a better solution. It makes tumble useable for tumbling through problematic situations (eg traps) whilst avoiding its abuse

as a end game trapper and someone who solo's mid level reapers. R4-6 the fact that I can't even tumble now out of the way of spells and get ahead of some mobs while kiting is a real pain in the butt now. As the mobs run upto 3x my character speed (hell they were keeping up with my iron defender when I sent it to go interact with something as a test and that little sucker is 3x my speed even) and is out side a dungeon alert.

For solo players like my self and my small crew (who all solo mid reapers) Tumble was used as an OH CRAP need to get out for a second to heal. Now its like we can't even use tumble to dodge anything as in reaper any of the buffs give do jack squat. (even in level {lvl 4 R5}) when I tested this on my main in proof there was no improvement if anything it made dealing with getting around all the collision object a nightmare as the moment I used up my charges I was stuck having to use the acid to kill stuff instead of relying on my weapons while I just sit on safe spots that they can't climb up to and countering camp casters with spell adsorption items while they just sit there in acid pools. (sure I got rid of like 5 consumable items but i've got a good stock pile)

That's not how you are ment to run that quest. Its was designed to kill as you pull back to a larger area with less objects to stop you. all this change did is make me kite mobs through traps with haste pots and speed boosts.... not so much slow me down but gave more kills to dungeon hazards then me. *when the acid pool does 30-90 points of damage to a t3 champ or even a doom/vengance reaper i'm going to use it if I can't move around so I don't waste sp and consumables*

I'm sure there are areas where higher level traps the damage will be much higher and ai pathing will be abused to get them stuck in holes and just get them out of the way will be used more now that we can't use tumble in rapid chains if people are tanking and just let the ranged DPS handle it rather then have to deal with limited tumble on top of having traps just kill mobs if you can kite them through so you don't end up with alerts and have the mobs just tp back to their spawn points from acid/water/lava and other deep hazards.

 

[DDO Gaming]

Hopefully a final thought before we close the book on tumble and the devs hopefully implement a more practical restriction (eg 10 charges with 30 seocnd cooldown).

I don't care how folks chose to play DDO and I found the "tumble is the source of all evil" OP to be childish and surreal. but the subsequent essays defending tumble were equally insane. its one feature and gamers can work around the restriction with a bit of creativity. And DDO gamers are amongst the most creative in the gaming world.
Oh BTW you can;t abuse tumble or any other ingame feature. Examples of abuse are:
1. paying for packages then reversing ytour credicard payment to obtain the package for free
2. insulting fellow gamers and playing in such a way as to soulstone them
3. Exploiting loopholes to obtain free shards

tumbling through a dungeon is merely a gamer's preferred gaming style and I would personally would remove the restriction entirely after telling the enlightened paladin to go seek stronger light where the grass is greener so they can get higher and higher

 

[Mordenkainen]

I tested that, it doesn't even do that. No damage is being avoided.

Also you can't chain the tumbles, making it very awkward. With 2 charges and the ability to chain them you might be able to effectively tumble out of the way or range *some* of the times... but it's basically useless as implemented now.

Obviously this was never tested by people that knew what the legitimate use cases were for tumble to see if it was still useful that way.

Perhaps bringing back the chaining and having more charges (around 5 or so), could make this useful again.

This was what I feared, due to lag, server/client latency, and animation framerates the dodge bonus from tumble is utterly useless. If you get ultra lucky and the stars align maybe you'll hit that 1 sec window to dodge a possible attack.

Otherwise, this is utterly useless.

If the tumble window was increased to 3 seconds BUT it wears off after one attack was dodged. Then... it may be useful.

 

[jotmon]

Tumble before update

after update

 

[Toede]

I do not play tumble based character right now (favored soul that does not need it), so I just tested it with 1 point invested (plus some bonus from item and dex, it was positive in total, so I was able to roll, not hop) and no mobility feat.
I had 2 charges and when tried to make quick double tumble forward for longer distance (some situations may require it like long traps, large enemy, groups of enemies, multiple projectiles and aoe), then I ended up with no second tumble (2 charges were still used) or teleported back after second animation (I was somewhere between position of 1 and 1.5 tumble) or had too long lag between first and second (it was not smooth enough, so you can get hit during that delay by trap or enemy, but possibly still defended by dodge or reflex save).
Maybe 2 vs 3+ charges or points in tumble or forward vs backward makes difference (I mean is bugged).
You may compare with other character if you can.

I do not promote using tumble for increased movement speed.
Dodge and reflex save bonus is nice idea, but using tumble should not break combat flow, just like you are not limited with jumps, so when you need to, then you do not end up staying in place and do not have to check charges each time with block first (there is no time for this during fast paced combat on higher difficulties when solo against all, because you auto react instantly with expected evasive movement or get hit).

I see what you mean now. You're talking about using it back to back without any delay whatsoever. I understand where you are coming from. Generally I stop briefly between tumbles because I am attacking or what not but I can see how that would be useful to get through a trap. But that's exactly what enables it to be used as a travel mechanism in the first place.

Perhaps it needs to work the way it did up to a point to allow for those use cases. I can even see needing to roll twice right away in a combat situation.

EDIT: Also just now playing around with it I got the effect you were describing where you lose two charges but only tumbled one time. There seems to be a brief little window of time between preventing a second tumble and allowing it where it will just eat a charge and do nothing. That definitely needs fixing.

 

[erethizon1]

That is the equivalent of saying that my 80+ PL character should have the exact same base stats as a first life. Builds are supposed to be different. PL farmers optimize for speed. I'm not invalidating your point, but I believe that everyone should have the choice to move at their own pace. If I make a build designed to move 15% faster base than a non-optimized build, I should have that freedom. if I want to have passive/OOC movement speed at 45% increase, I should be able to do that. And I can, with AB: Sprint. But the nature of AB: Sprint incentivizes skipping mob packs because of the buff duration and limited charges.

I don't personally have a problem with our current, or any of our former, movement systems. But then I'm naturally adaptable and don't have a problem with much of anything in life (which is why I don't get upset at game patches even if they negatively affect my character). Some people are faster than me, and that is fine. Some people are slower than me, and I think the game would be better if they weren't. I'm not saying the game would be better if everyone had the same stats no matter the amount of past lives, but I am saying it would be better if no one was super slow. Being weak is bad enough. Being weak and slow is a pretty miserable way to start the game (and it is the way every new player starts out).

At this point I cannot tell if you like being fast, or if you specifically like being faster than everyone else. I don't have a problem with everyone being the same speed as your fastest character. I'm not arguing that run speed should be slower. I'm arguing that intentional griefing, like you propose about killing everything before anyone else in your party can even reach it, should be more difficult to achieve. I personally don't mind when someone else does all the killing in a quest, but then I am a healer at heart and never liked having to do the killing. I do however know a lot of people complain when everything dies before they can reach it (melee players seem to complain about this professionally) so it seems wise to keep everyone around the same speed so as to minimize this problem.

If you were in my group, and I actually cared about killing stuff, I'd just crank up the reaper level until you were no longer able to kill everything before the rest of the group got there. I haven't hosted an R1 group in a long time. But then I find it really silly that people both complain that stuff dies too fast and play R1. The reason to play R1 is because you want stuff to die fast, perhaps even before most of the party reaches it, so this is problem that is effortlessly solved. I soloed R10 Bringing the Light last life just because I had always wondered how tough it would be and I can say, there is no quest that doesn't benefit from cranking up the reaper level. But I do acknowledge that there are a number of people that don't like playing the game and only play to be done with it. These are the people that complain about "grind" and say we have too many past lives.

 

[DDO Gaming]

I'm arguing that intentional griefing, like you propose about killing everything before anyone else in your party can even reach it, should be more difficult to achieve. I personally don't mind when someone else does all the killing in a quest, but then I am a healer at heart and never liked having to do the killing. I do however know a lot of people complain when everything dies before they can reach it (melee players seem to complain about this professionally) so it seems wise to keep everyone around the same speed so as to minimize this problem.

This is precisely the core fundemantal problem with this forum group and how we tumbled into this mess: I don't like the way yo uplay therefore blah blah blah hence:

I don't care how folks chose to play DDO and I found the "tumble is the source of all evil" OP to be childish and surreal

 

[Kessaran]

I don't personally have a problem with our current, or any of our former, movement systems. But then I'm naturally adaptable and don't have a problem with much of anything in life (which is why I don't get upset at game patches even if they negatively affect my character). Some people are faster than me, and that is fine. Some people are slower than me, and I think the game would be better if they weren't. I'm not saying the game would be better if everyone had the same stats no matter the amount of past lives, but I am saying it would be better if no one was super slow. Being weak is bad enough. Being weak and slow is a pretty miserable way to start the game (and it is the way every new player starts out).

At this point I cannot tell if you like being fast, or if you specifically like being faster than everyone else. I don't have a problem with everyone being the same speed as your fastest character. I'm not arguing that run speed should be slower. I'm arguing that intentional griefing, like you propose about killing everything before anyone else in your party can even reach it, should be more difficult to achieve. I personally don't mind when someone else does all the killing in a quest, but then I am a healer at heart and never liked having to do the killing. I do however know a lot of people complain when everything dies before they can reach it (melee players seem to complain about this professionally) so it seems wise to keep everyone around the same speed so as to minimize this problem.

If you were in my group, and I actually cared about killing stuff, I'd just crank up the reaper level until you were no longer able to kill everything before the rest of the group got there. I haven't hosted an R1 group in a long time. But then I find it really silly that people both complain that stuff dies too fast and play R1. The reason to play R1 is because you want stuff to die fast, perhaps even before most of the party reaches it, so this is problem that is effortlessly solved. I soloed R10 Bringing the Light last life just because I had always wondered how tough it would be and I can say, there is no quest that doesn't benefit from cranking up the reaper level. But I do acknowledge that there are a number of people that don't like playing the game and only play to be done with it. These are the people that complain about "grind" and say we have too many past lives.

I've been playing for a very long time and have been through all of the major nerfs etc. In the past. Adaptability isn't the issue, my only real concern has always been about the out of combat movement speed. After re-reading my initial post in this thread, it appears misleading and for that I apologize. I do believe the tumble changes suck in their current iteration, but the thing that irks me more is that we lost a FAIR movement mechanic. By fair, I mean that everyone had access to it with a single rank in tumble. No matter your build or play style, it was equally possible by level 1 to achieve for everyone regardless of past life status or build. And as I stated in a couple of other posts the absolute BEST part about it was the ability to speed up the OOC portions of the game, and there are a LOT of them. Even inside of quests, a large portion of them is spent not in combat due to running through previously cleared areas for mechanics (Haywire's Foundry is a great example) or obscenely long portions where there aren't mob packs to begin with (Detour in High Road). New players/people who don't mind slower movement or taking in scenery didn't give a flip about the tumblers, and multiple people asked me how to do it and the answer was simply "Next Level, put 1 rank into tumble".

I like being fast when the game has nothing else to offer me. Specifically, out of combat and long, no-combat sections of quests. I have always preferred to stop and kill mob packs because it's what the game was built around, and the combat is the best part of the game in my opinion. While that's a subjective point of view, my ability to tumble through quests was by no means an advantage over other players because EVERYONE had access to that method of movement if they chose to. The other main benefit to tumble movers is that we didn't feel like we were forced to waste charges or buff duration because we stopped to kill things, which AB: Sprint will make people feel. AB: Sprint is a great movement ability, and it's design feels fine especially considering if you AB: Sprint into a massive pack of mobs, Harried will make you slow down to kill things and since it shares cool down time with other action boosts you have to pick between speed and ability to fight. The obvious answer to that decision? Ab:Sprint past mobs in whatever way you can and only stop when the buff runs out. AB:Sprint is also limited to Falconry (a paid universal tree for most) or very specific classes, which makes it a very restrictive movement method not available to all.

As for "grind", I loved it. I actually just last night completed Racial Completionist, giving me both Heroic and Racial Completionist. I love the game, and will continue to play no matter what changes are made to it. But current movement options are extremely limited, and there are always going to be people who want to be faster. I personally am not a fan of plowing PAST mobs with AB: Sprint to speed up questing, because that removes the most fun part of the game. I'd rather plow THROUGH mobs on my way to finish a quest, but not feel like a turtle when there's literally nothing else to do but move to the next section.

 

[Archaic]

Especially with the introduction of enhancement trees and acrobat rogue/monk in particular the tumble skill had a lot of possibility. Special moves unlocked at certain ranks in line with feats/enhancements would have been awesome and made for real cinematic combat. A single click for an acrobatic movement with an attack for simplicity would be ideal.
How it worked before I left the first time was clean. How far you tumbled depended on ranks in the skill, the more tumble you had allowed basic aerial moves while jumping/dodging.
There was a pause after the end of the tumble to regain composure.
THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD WORK AS WRITTEN. It's okay to take it from there to new heights but not backwards to the point it is a major annoyance and does nothing for an action based game.
Sure... you should not out tumble a horse but making it feel constipated in its use is NOT FUN. You know the kind of FUN people are looking for when playing a game.

 

[Speed]

Also just now playing around with it I got the effect you were describing where you lose two charges but only tumbled one time. There seems to be a brief little window of time between preventing a second tumble and allowing it where it will just eat a charge and do nothing. That definitely needs fixing.

I think there should be minimum 3 starting charges that are upgradeable up to 5 for any class with dodge and mobility (making them more competitive feats) and maybe extra +1 for specific classes that can be taken only once in case of multiclassing (should test maximum charges in practice to limit movement speed exploit), no lag for chains or at least for quick double, and better solution for info about current status of charges.

Here is some more info about lag when using quick double tumble:

Finally got to the bottom of this (I think):

Post U66.0.1, if you have Experimental Tumble Controls enabled, and have W pressed (or autorun turned on), and tumble once, and then press your tumble key multiple times as soon as your first tumble ends (this the hard part, there's a very specific window where you need to press the tumble key for it to bug, otherwise it works fine), you lose an extra tumble charge (your screen hitches as if you tumbled -and you likely did- but you don't see the animation for the 2nd tumble). You need to be moving constantly (AKA don't release W at all) for this bug to occur.

Similarly, if you do not have Experimental Tumble Controls enabled: you stand still, press your block/tumble key, and then hit W once and you tumble normally. But if you don't release your block/tumble key and then you hit W again at a specific window, right as your first tumble ends (spam W multiple times to get it right), the same thing as above occurs: you lose an extra tumble charge, your screen hitches as you do the 2nd "borked" tumble, but you don't actually see the animation.

 

[seph1roth5]

This new system sounded good in theory, but is way too janky irl. They're trying to copy the invincibility-frame dash of more action games like genshin impact, but have no idea how to do it. It's sort of like the vip disaster plan where they were going for some sort of battle pass but, again, had no idea how those work.

The buff needs to last longer than 1 sec, especially with the way enemy targeting and attacking works. Recharge needs to be faster than 8 sec, and there needs to be more than 2 ways to add charges. Ways to reduce recharge time would be great too. Also, tumbling needs to be seamless not have giant honking pauses.

At this point I'd rather they just scrap it and get rid of experimental tumble like their first "fix" was.

 

[dur]

The new tumble is only an issue for gamers whose playstyle revolves around it ie they are constantly rolling around (something I have NEVER seen). They will now need to change the way they play.

Its possible higher reaper demands constant tumbling for certain builds or gaming styles

I did not ever "constantly roll around," although I remember very early on (2008) some expert+ tumblers. I use it when setting traps and rolling to avoid damage - they way it always was, before they introduced "experimental controls," didn't like the results, so fubared the core process? Why did they do that, instead oF dropping the "experimental" part and leave tumble alone?

Tumble was a core function, like jump. *ETA: Certainly a core function to Thief-Acrobat builds.. rangers.. 2 of mine.. they've killed it (made it useless, at best.)

I tested that, it doesn't even do that. No damage is being avoided.

Also you can't chain the tumbles, making it very awkward. With 2 charges and the ability to chain them you might be able to effectively tumble out of the way or range *some* of the times... but it's basically useless as implemented now.

Obviously this was never tested by people that knew what the legitimate use cases were for tumble to see if it was still useful that way.

Perhaps bringing back the chaining and having more charges (around 5 or so), could make this useful again.

5 would be better than 3, but this is so punitive it's not even funny.

This new system sounded good in theory, but is way too janky irl. They're trying to copy the invincibility-frame dash of more action games like genshin impact, but have no idea how to do it. It's sort of like the vip disaster plan where they were going for some sort of battle pass but, again, had no idea how those work.

The buff needs to last longer than 1 sec, especially with the way enemy targeting and attacking works. Recharge needs to be faster than 8 sec, and there needs to be more than 2 ways to add charges. Ways to reduce recharge time would be great too. Also, tumbling needs to be seamless not have giant honking pauses.

At this point I'd rather they just scrap it and get rid of experimental tumble like their first "fix" was.

Yes.

 

[karthunk]

This new system sounded good in theory, but is way too janky irl. They're trying to copy the invincibility-frame dash of more action games like genshin impact, but have no idea how to do it. It's sort of like the vip disaster plan where they were going for some sort of battle pass but, again, had no idea how those work.

The buff needs to last longer than 1 sec, especially with the way enemy targeting and attacking works. Recharge needs to be faster than 8 sec, and there needs to be more than 2 ways to add charges. Ways to reduce recharge time would be great too. Also, tumbling needs to be seamless not have giant honking pauses.

At this point I'd rather they just scrap it and get rid of experimental tumble like their first "fix" was.

At this point we just have to accept that the game is going to always have pauses randomly. I do agree with a longer time on the buff from tumbling, two seconds sounds reasonable.

 

[erethizon1]

This is precisely the core fundemantal problem with this forum group and how we tumbled into this mess: I don't like the way yo uplay therefore blah blah blah hence:

I didn't say anything about not liking the way someone plays. I said having everyone be equally fast prevents the particular form of griefing the poster proposed. Is the point of tumble speed to be fast or to be faster than everyone else? I see no problem in allowing everyone to move at the fastest possible speed. Movement speed doesn't need to be an area where players differ in ability.

 

[dur]

Hopefully a final thought before we close the book on tumble and the devs hopefully implement a more practical restriction (eg 10 charges with 30 seocnd cooldown).

I don't care how folks chose to play DDO and I found the "tumble is the source of all evil" OP to be childish and surreal. but the subsequent essays defending tumble were equally insane. its one feature and gamers can work around the restriction with a bit of creativity. And DDO gamers are amongst the most creative in the gaming world.
Oh BTW you can;t abuse tumble or any other ingame feature. Examples of abuse are:
1. paying for packages then reversing ytour credicard payment to obtain the package for free
2. insulting fellow gamers and playing in such a way as to soulstone them
3. Exploiting loopholes to obtain free shards

tumbling through a dungeon is merely a gamer's preferred gaming style and I would personally would remove the restriction entirely after telling the enlightened paladin to go seek stronger light where the grass is greener so they can get higher and higher

@erethizon1: but they have much to say.. including directing (or trying to) the conversation. just one example.

 

[DDO Gaming]

@erethizon1: but they have much to say.. including directing (or trying to) the conversation. just one example.

if you have a problem with folks expressing an opinion maybe you should go stare at a wall for an hour. have a nice day

 

[DDO Gaming]

I didn't say anything about not liking the way someone plays. I said having everyone be equally fast prevents the particular form of griefing the poster proposed. Is the point of tumble speed to be fast or to be faster than everyone else? I see no problem in allowing everyone to move at the fastest possible speed. Movement speed doesn't need to be an area where players differ in ability.

so why limit it to speed, to tumble etc? why not eliminate ALL differences? Heck why not simplify it further by having just one race/class build so everyone plays the same way?

 

[dur]

if you have a problem with folks expressing an opinion maybe you should go stare at a wall for an hour. have a nice day

I don't have problems with opinions, it's the use of pejoratives and "Close(ing) the book" on an ongoing discussion..