Tumbling was nerfed too hard

[Redtalktree]

I sort of had an idea. What if when the player tumbles, they get like 95% dodge (ignoring cap) for 1 sec, then after that, they get dodge% based on tumble skill that lasts 3 sec (ignoring cap) , and after that, they get another lingering buff that lasts for 5 seconds that gives % dodge (ignoring cap) based on tumble skill, but less, maybe half as the 2 sec one. So someone with 100 tumble, would get something like 95% for 1sec, then +30% for 3 sec, and then +15% for 5 sec.

That way you can still use it to dodge traps, and it'll be much more useful (and usable) in combat with the lingering buffs.

wow thats way way oped, its not going to happen, they neffed the uncapped dodge (shadow meld if my memory is functioning still) in SD a while ago cos it was oped as hell and ppl was bling bling that dodge up almost 100% of the time.

 

[Orchidblossomwasgutted]

k. ty for that. and what has that to do with tumble? other than what I mentioned earlier about whifs of exploit. Who else has useless Card Cruncher from.. 5th? anniversary?

You cant. They literally disabled the cruncher device. No one can use it

 

[l_remmie]

There is a difference between skillpoints invested and skillpoints buffed. Perform works that way, tumble can too.
It can also be soft capped like jump at 40. They can pick any number and scale it accordingly.

Tumble has multiple metrics distance, speed, charges, recharge, save bonus, Dodge bonus.
And they can even add more.

There are many ways to use the tumble skillpoints and total value to make investing in tumble and tumble gear fair and balanced.

In the meantime just add 1 charge. While you have another look at it.

 

[PraetorPlato]

There is a difference between skillpoints invested and skillpoints buffed. Perform works that way, tumble can too.
It can also be soft capped like jump at 40. They can pick any number and scale it accordingly.

Tumble has multiple metrics distance, speed, charges, recharge, save bonus, Dodge bonus.
And they can even add more.

There are many ways to use the tumble skillpoints and total value to make investing in tumble and tumble gear fair and balanced.

In the meantime just add 1 charge. While you have another look at it.

Jump is hard capped at 40, no? there's nothing soft about it.

 

[l_remmie]

Jump is hard capped at 40, no? there's nothing soft about it.

Nothing restricts you from getting it higher. And you want a bit higher for debuffs etc.
But yea in practice you are right.

 

[PersonMan]

need that 60 for sneaky jumps

 

[dunklezhan]

I haven't tried to properly max this out yet, but I did already have a rogue who got a couple of extra charges due to the enhancements they were taking anyway. I tried taking advantage of that and my feedback so far is:

Summary:
Overall, I think it's an excellent concept. The speedy movement speed was cool and all, but I really like the core concept of it being a 'tactical use' ability.

But I think just needs to be a little more permissive to make it a more generally "fun", and the scope should be broadened to think of more interesting reasons for *non* tumble monkeys to want to use the five foot step charges that they have beyond the dodge which thematically doesn't really work for me in terms of what you do whilst *blocking* if you're not actually built (skills & gear wise) to 'tumble'.

More detail:

First: Icons are too small at max zoom out (which is how I like to play), it looks to me like they're "attached" to the character rather than being a UI element. Because of this, if you *do* want to make a character that is meant to properly use this mechanic, maxing out all the relevant things... its very hard to keep track of what you have left in the tank so to speak.

Second: +1 charges as a baseline for everyone, more classes getting ways in their enhancement trees (or racial trees, or universal trees, but mutual-exclusive I would suggest) to boost their max charges. Getting immobilised whilst blocking is boring, it needs to take just a little longer for that to happen please.

Third: Tighter integration with the actual tumble skill, e.g. +1 charge based on actual Tumble skill break points, or faster recharge time at those break points. Or both.

Fourth: Introduce like a "reverse runearm" thing in the mechanic: the fewer charges you have when you use a charge, the less effective the tumble is? i.e. as you start to run out you *start* to get tired and less effective, but you can still keep going for now. This will encourage people to *manage* their charges tactically based on the opposition / difficulty level, rather than just trying to avoid running out of them.

Fifth: I think if the recharge rate is sped up (or you can build/skill for it) in some fashion as per suggestions above, then the first charge from zero should be set to recharge much slower than the rest. This will maintain the incentive *not* to run out whilst allowing you to still make "frequent" use of charges. i.e. when you actually run out you are now properly *tired*, and really can't keep pushing yourself anymore without a little bit of a break from all that.

 

[paddymaxson]

I'd just like to know what their 'vision' for tumbling is.

Based on this thing called Dungeons and Dragons,

Correct me ifmI'm wrong but I don't believe D&D 3.5 has an active tumble mechanic, it is basically Bonus AC if not flat footed and a skill used for skill checks, it's not dodging, it's a mechanical representation of the idea that your character might be able to roll out of the way of an attack.

To be honest I do like the new tumble system as it DOES make it into an active tumble mechanic but MAYBE they were too harsh re: charges and recharge time, the skill probably should give shorter cooldown/more charges for TRAINED ranks, maybe +1 charge per 5 and -1s recharge per 5, as the 3.5 rules were +1 AC per 5 trained tanks if I remember right.

I very much did not enjoy the meta being tapping shift every half a second, as someone who mained Octavia in warframe I do not want to cause an RSI to my pinky again.

 

[dunklezhan]

Tumble skill should not modify charges, charges are perfect as is. Adding more charges is the slippery slope that leads down the road of using tumble to move faster than horses. Tumble skill should influence how much dodge % you get while tumbling. It doesn't make sense that a character with a 120 tumble would receive the same % you get when avoiding an attack as a character that has a 20 tumble.

This entire issue is convoluted because there are two camps; one that wants tumble to be useful in combat, and one camp that simply wants to move fast. They should be disjointed. Tumble should never have been, nor ever should going forward, be the mechanism that allows faster movement. If you want characters to move faster, campaign for a 5% boost based on past lives or VIP or whatever. It should have nothing to do with tumble.

Completely agree (well, I think you can argue whether Tumble skill should or shouldn't increase charges or maybe recharge speed. But with your second paragraph I do completely agree!).

Tactical Tumble = can debate if current implementation is fun or not and how to tweak it to make it fun, but tactical use of Tumble is definitely in keeping with how Tumble is meant to work (i.e. decisions to get out of immediate harm or move around the fight, plus the passive falling damage absorption). I come down on the side of "fun with some tweaks", myself.

Movement speed = clearly players want more of that, and I'm certainly not agin' it. But whether Tumble is the right way to deliver a persistent speed boost is an entirely different question. I come down on the side of "naw", myself

I sure miss experimental tumble purely as a way to invoke the tumble though.

 

[Lazuli]

Correct me ifmI'm wrong but I don't believe D&D 3.5 has an active tumble mechanic, it is basically Bonus AC if not flat footed and a skill used for skill checks, it's not dodging, it's a mechanical representation of the idea that your character might be able to roll out of the way of an attack.

To be honest I do like the new tumble system as it DOES make it into an active tumble mechanic but MAYBE they were too harsh re: charges and recharge time, the skill probably should give shorter cooldown/more charges for TRAINED ranks, maybe +1 charge per 5 and -1s recharge per 5, as the 3.5 rules were +1 AC per 5 trained tanks if I remember right.

I very much did not enjoy the meta being tapping shift every half a second, as someone who mained Octavia in warframe I do not want to cause an RSI to my pinky again.

No, this is not true. Tumble in D&D 3 Ed is used to prevent AoO when moving by threatened squares, or even occupied squares. Not get hit by AoO is important in D&D 3ed. You can prevent movement at half speed with a feat or the appropriate prestige class.

Tumble DC	Task​
15​	Treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it really is when determining damage.
15​	Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
25​	Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

Loading… www.d20srd.org

 

[pinstripedbarbarian]

What gets me is the explanation given on one of the streams as to why exp.tumble was getting axed boils down to 'we don't like the way it looks when people are tumbling so much' with the speed boost almost as an after thought.

'It looks weird, so no' being a primary driving factor for devs reworking something is hilariously poor prioritization for a game where pets/hirelings have had major bugs for several years with zero attempts to patch/fix them.

And in that same stream, when asked about increasing base run speed, they gave a vague response about how 'you could write an essay about the pros and cons of doing that' and didn't actually say anything of substance.

Players liked and appreciated part of the mechanic because it made the game more fun.
If the speed boost was too much, you could just reduce it rather than remove it altogether.
If it is the aesthetics that's the main problem, then increase base speed a bit for folks.

 

[Lazuli]

What gets me is the explanation given on one of the streams as to why exp.tumble was getting axed boils down to 'we don't like the way it looks when people are tumbling so much' with the speed boost almost as an after thought.

'It looks weird, so no' being a primary driving factor for devs reworking something is hilariously poor prioritization for a game where pets/hirelings have had major bugs for several years with zero attempts to patch/fix them.

And in that same stream, when asked about increasing base run speed, they gave a vague response about how 'you could write an essay about the pros and cons of doing that' and didn't actually say anything of substance.

Players liked and appreciated part of the mechanic because it made the game more fun.
If the speed boost was too much, you could just reduce it rather than remove it altogether.
If it is the aesthetics that's the main problem, then increase base speed a bit for folks.

Let us use the mounts as long as there are no enemies nearby.

 

[paddymaxson]

No, this is not true. Tumble in D&D 3 Ed is used to prevent AoO when moving by threatened squares, or even occupied squares. Not get hit by AoO is important in D&D 3ed. You can prevent movement at half speed with a feat or the appropriate prestige class.

Tumble DC	Task​
15​	Treat a fall as if it were 10 feet shorter than it really is when determining damage.
15​	Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.
25​	Tumble at one-half speed through an area occupied by an enemy (over, under, or around the opponent) as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you stop before entering the enemy-occupied area and provoke an attack of opportunity from that enemy. Check separately for each opponent. Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.

Loading… www.d20srd.org

Happy to admit I'm wrong, maybe the devs should unrestrict tumble but make it make you move at half movement speed when used per the rulse then?

 

[Br4d]

need that 60 for sneaky jumps

And hope that you're not scuttling like a crab afterwards until you leave stealth and come back in.

 

[Lazuli]

Happy to admit I'm wrong, maybe the devs should unrestrict tumble but make it make you move at half movement speed when used per the rulse then?

Well, in D&D characters who want to use tumble at full power (generally melees with light armor, or at least medium armor, heavy imposes too big a penalty) usually invest a little to tumble at full speed.

I thought the original DDO tumble was a good adaptation of the pnp skill, I only had a problem with the fact that it was a bit annoying to use (better controls at the user level is all I would have asked for from the original tumble)

I believe that this tumble system with charges that activate powerful defensive bonuses has potential to be added to the acrobat, ninja and swashbuckler trees or as feats for those who want to expand the skill, but I would leave the original system for normal use.


What I would do:

-Leave the skill as originally, if possible a more comfortable activation, but without increased speed, bonuses, or charges.

-Charges to activate defensive bonuses, especially oriented to acrobatic classes. They would still be able to tumble for free as long as they wanted, but activate the few charges for moments of special risk.

-Let us use mounts when we are out of combat (the system already exists for healing in reaper)


With this, I think everyone would be happy.

 

[Nokowi]

Let's think about a functional implementation.
- allows people to tumble as much as they want in combat
- discourages tumbling for movement speed

Your first tumble activates a radius from the tumble and a timer. You have unlimited tumbles within that radius and until the timer resets. You may not initiate a tumble outside that radius until the timer resets. The radius is based on your tumble score. You have a game option to visually display or not display the radius. This design is inherently balanced. Tumble score is useful for tumbling. Tumble is a movement ability (like jump) that still allows attacks while tumbling. Some tumble special abilities will be a tumble attack that proc the movement and a separate attack, with the appropriate delays for making an attack.

We are not altering who gets how many charges through the next 25 updates. We don't need an annoying HUD. We don't need pauses where we can't do anything - the tumble animation will be made continuous as fast as we can click. We don't need silly bonus to reflex saves or other things that are just going to cause lots of future re-working.

I am amazed how limited the understanding is of well-designed interactions in this game. They appear from time to time but they are at the mercy the design process.

 

[Col Kurtz]

Of the Tumble thing was not enough for you, then wait for the Fart Skill counter! You can only Fart if you saved enough charges.

special Farts like the sneaky squeaker will require multiple charges

there will be a special 'ddo store only' release of Bean rations, which give +2 Fart charges per serving.

 

[Br4d]

Let's think about a functional implementation.
- allows people to tumble as much as they want in combat
- discourages tumbling for movement speed

Your first tumble activates a radius from the tumble and a timer. You have unlimited tumbles within that radius and until the timer resets. You may not initiate a tumble outside that radius until the timer resets. The radius is based on your tumble score. You have a game option to visually display or not display the radius. This design is inherently balanced. Tumble score is useful for tumbling. Tumble is a movement ability (like jump) that still allows attacks while tumbling. Some tumble special abilities will be a tumble attack that proc the movement and a separate attack, with the appropriate delays for making an attack.

We are not altering who gets how many charges through the next 25 updates. We don't need an annoying HUD. We don't need pauses where we can't do anything - the tumble animation will be made continuous as fast as we can click. We don't need silly bonus to reflex saves or other things that are just going to cause lots of future re-working.

I am amazed how limited the understanding is of well-designed interactions in this game. They appear from time to time but they are at the mercy the design process.

100%.

The flaw in the original tumbling implementation was that it gave increased speed in conditions that otherwise would reduce speed (like shallow water.) This speed increased as your tumble skill increased.

This is the baseline for tumble-based movement, which should never have been in the game in the first place.

What increased tumble score should do is to increase your tumbling options (already does this) and make your tumbles more effective at avoiding damage in combat. Give a tumbling character a dodge chance increase at some low level that effectively mitigates some of the damage they take. Increment the dodge chance by a small amount, maybe a fifth of a point of dodge for each point of tumble with no upwards cap on tumble skill.

 

[Xaerxiessia]

Let's think about a functional implementation.
- allows people to tumble as much as they want in combat
- discourages tumbling for movement speed

Your first tumble activates a radius from the tumble and a timer. You have unlimited tumbles within that radius and until the timer resets. You may not initiate a tumble outside that radius until the timer resets. The radius is based on your tumble score. You have a game option to visually display or not display the radius. This design is inherently balanced. Tumble score is useful for tumbling. Tumble is a movement ability (like jump) that still allows attacks while tumbling. Some tumble special abilities will be a tumble attack that proc the movement and a separate attack, with the appropriate delays for making an attack.

We are not altering who gets how many charges through the next 25 updates. We don't need an annoying HUD. We don't need pauses where we can't do anything - the tumble animation will be made continuous as fast as we can click. We don't need silly bonus to reflex saves or other things that are just going to cause lots of future re-working.

I am amazed how limited the understanding is of well-designed interactions in this game. They appear from time to time but they are at the mercy the design process.

too complicated , that would add additional layers of computation ^^ (each hit already triggers too many effects , don't look forward to find the root of the lags)

a simpler way to implement your design is to only consume one charge if you keep tumbling twice in the same direction. If you tumble to another direction, you reset the counter or regain one charge

 

[Br4d]

too complicated , that would add additional layers of computation ^^ (each hit already triggers too many effects , don't look forward to find the root of the lags)

a simpler way to implement your design is to only consume one charge if you keep tumbling twice in the same direction. If you tumble to another direction, you reset the counter or regain one charge

Can you imagine how completely disjointed movement would look once people figured out how to maximize speed by tumbling forward-left-forward-right-forward-left-forward-right, etc?

And they would.

The real problem with tumble based movement is that it makes no sense. You get your momentum on the first tumble from the energy spent in your legs and the effect of gravity as your upper body moves forward and lowers and the lack of resistance it meets as you curl into the roll during movement. Where does the energy for the next tumble come from if you don't fully stand up and use your legs again to create the energy to keep moving into the next tumble?

I've offered the fart boost as the obvious analogue here and it would run into the same problem. After the first big blast you'd be low on gasses and needing to refill somehow. Even if you carried a burrito dispenser and ate one after every boost you'd run into gas shortages.