Tumbling was nerfed too hard

[Nokowi]

Calculating a "same direction" is just as much computation as a distance calculation. Then you add in keeping track of charges. Then you add in the 100's of future hours managing who gets how many charges in each tree, and player angst when they make changes (nerfs) to buff the next thing they will sell.

It's not the best design choice. They removed charges in the trees because keeping track of charges was a bad design. Adding them back when there is a perfectly viable solution without charges is poor design.

 

[Xaerxiessia]

that 's why they added a charge system
computing position in a radius is far more CPU consuming than checking a key stroke.
And for the record , I'm not agreeing with the charge system. I would rather keep the former design for the tumble skill

Can you imagine how completely disjointed movement would look once people figured out how to maximize speed by tumbling forward-left-forward-right-forward-left-forward-right, etc?

And they would.

So long as it keeps players under standard running pace , I really doubt they would insist, honestly.

 

[Nokowi]

that 's why they added a charge system
computing position in a radius is far more CPU consuming than checking a key stroke.
And for the record , I'm not agreeing with the charge system. I would rather keep the former design for the tumble skill


So long as it keeps players under standard running pace , I really doubt they would insist, honestly.

Hint: It would be a square. They just need to check an x and y distance. That's two subtractions and an if statement and it replaces the cost of making some other move action. Regardless of the specifics, the net cost as compared to moving is an additional if statement. If we don't tumble we still move in that direction.

With charges a tumble needs an if statement to check charges and a subtraction. Then you add the cost of recuperating charges which is always there, even when not tumbling.

I can tell you that devs would not even consider having loot chances increase when you don't find an item. Keeping track of the chance was considered too unstable. The moment players find a way to have the charges not subtract or to get them to reset we run into the original issue - likely with a lower quality of play fix since the issue will be difficult to fix.

If calculating a distance is stable in DDO then that is a better solution. I can see the "able to attack while tumbling" as potentially problematic. As long as tumble is useful enough the loss of an attack will be acceptable to some players.

 

[Gunguz]

I'm largely okay with the concept, however the way the mechanic works now, I'd rather have it as a skill on my hotbar that I can hot key, and where the icon displays the available charges. Not knowing if a charge is available is super annoying.

 

[dur]

I find it laughable that the number of Tumble charges doesn't scale based on the Tumble skill value. Imagine having a high Tumble skill actually being impactful.

This wasn't noticed in Lama?

Tumble skill should not modify charges, charges are perfect as is. Adding more charges is the slippery slope that leads down the road of using tumble to move faster than horses. Tumble skill should influence how much dodge % you get while tumbling. It doesn't make sense that a character with a 120 tumble would receive the same % you get when avoiding an attack as a character that has a 20 tumble.

This entire issue is convoluted because there are two camps; one that wants tumble to be useful in combat, and one camp that simply wants to move fast. They should be disjointed. Tumble should never have been, nor ever should going forward, be the mechanism that allows faster movement. If you want characters to move faster, campaign for a 5% boost based on past lives or VIP or whatever. It should have nothing to do with tumble.

Charges are not "perfect as is." To be clear: I am in the camp that wants it for combat/evasion. Never knew about the exploit just that it was probably introduced with Experimental Controls (I know for sure you have to be Epic.)

My issue with new tumble is not the charges but the noticeable delay after a tumble where your feet are glued if block, can't tumble, can't move. You should be able to rapidly tumble in succession like you used to as long as you have the charges. Seems completely unnecessary to add this delay given the locomotion issue is gated by the charges.

Yup + they don't scale, nothing about it (*seems to) scales with Tumble skill points.

I'm not here to discuss the nerf to tumble, which I don't agree with, but I find it quite funny (to not say what I really think) that recently you told me to put up with the nerfs to DB, that's what mmo's are like. and now that they've nefed something you like you're complaining non-stop.

You can do it and others can't. Okay. There's a word to describe that, you know.

IIRC that was in regards to Rare scrolls? IDK what DB is.. if you don't care about Tumble you only came here to chide me? I never said you couldn't complain; this is about SSG killing (nerfing so hard, it's useless) a character skill that had one/two function/s from Day 1, which they are clearly standing by.

I sort of had an idea. What if when the player tumbles, they get like 95% dodge (ignoring cap) for 1 sec, then after that, they get dodge% based on tumble skill that lasts 3 sec (ignoring cap) , and after that, they get another lingering buff that lasts for 5 seconds that gives % dodge (ignoring cap) based on tumble skill, but less, maybe half as the 2 sec one. So someone with 100 tumble, would get something like 95% for 1sec, then +30% for 3 sec, and then +15% for 5 sec.

That way you can still use it to dodge traps, and it'll be much more useful (and usable) in combat with the lingering buffs.

Anything that introduces more usage with higher skill.

There is a difference between skillpoints invested and skillpoints buffed. Perform works that way, tumble can too.
It can also be soft capped like jump at 40. They can pick any number and scale it accordingly.

Tumble has multiple metrics distance, speed, charges, recharge, save bonus, Dodge bonus.
And they can even add more.

There are many ways to use the tumble skillpoints and total value to make investing in tumble and tumble gear fair and balanced.

In the meantime just add 1 charge. While you have another look at it.

Tumble had multiple metrics. Doesn't seem to mitigate falling damage anymore. **certainly never had @#$^* charges; does it still have speed? ..cause it should've never had speed.

 

[dur]

The other issue is that it's hard to balance increased tumble reasonably when 150+ tumble is very doable

As has been mentioned, this requires investment. The green steel item gives a big boost but you still need to invest the points that would have otherwise been put/invested elsewhere.

So.. why not a hard cap on Tumble? Would that "fix" the exploit and reverse this silly "tumble charge" bs? Or put a hard .5 second pause between.. is it a "process/proc" now?

**And, by chance, has anyone a +100 Jump toon? Or 100/100 tumble/jump toon?

 

[Guntango]

Just give us old tumble back.

 

[paddymaxson]

What I would do:

-Leave the skill as originally, if possible a more comfortable activation, but without increased speed, bonuses, or charges.

-Charges to activate defensive bonuses, especially oriented to acrobatic classes. They would still be able to tumble for free as long as they wanted, but activate the few charges for moments of special risk.

-Let us use mounts when we are out of combat (the system already exists for healing in reaper)


With this, I think everyone would be happy.

That's not unreasonable but the fact is the DDO devs clearly thought player characters were moving too quickly both in and out of combat, honestly a simpler fix to the tumble mechanic might have just been to make the speed boost obtained from it smaller, making it not so considerably faster or just put a small but not insignificant cooldown on tumbling, or a slightly move speed penalty at the end of the tumble. Rolling is faster than walking, but finding your feet at the end of the roll isn't faster than walking.

There were a lot of ways they could've fixed this and while I personally like what they did I understand lots of people don't, but there's plenty of people arguing asgainst it who have the reasoning "I enjoyed using the exploit"

 

[Archaic]

Tumble not negating falling damage is just the poo pebble on top of the dog pile.
Return Tumble to pre "experimental"...
That was a needless change that caused devastating ones.
Or only have charges when people have experimental turned on. If you want a continual roll- charges.
Non-continuous roll no charges.
And return the fall damage negation which was the initial purpose of the skill.
PS-This was no Exploit it was "REDESIGNED" to do exactly what people were doing straight up. You can't change the rules and cry about it when people play by them. That's utter nonsense. It was intended people would do this, almost like it was baiting the whole concept of it to redesign the wheel to be square. And yes it is a very Square wheel thank you for the inconvenience.

 

[Oliphant]

I'm ok with real devs not grinding DDO after working on actual game development all week, but any MBAs they hire should be hardcore DDO players or bust. I feel like there's one or two MBAs at SSG just phoning it in sicking Chat GPT on the forums to figure out what to do, except they solving problems not even the forums would hallucinate up. The "problems" devs seem to be dreaming up to fix lately are like total vapor ware.

 

[Xaerxiessia]

Bug ! Tumble breaks stealth with Cloak of the night and 'hide' skill. That was not the case before.

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/please-remove-the-tumbling-speed-bonus.4774/post-104730

 

[Nokowi]

Bug ! Tumble breaks stealth with Cloak of the night and 'hide' skill. That was not the case before.

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/please-remove-the-tumbling-speed-bonus.4774/post-104730

Unfortunately DDO agro is a mess much bigger than tumble. They haven't worked on sensible agro in years and with stealth 'not supported' I think degraded play is the norm and future for any form of agro management. I still hope they decide to make a concerted effort into a better agro system some day.

100%.

The flaw in the original tumbling implementation was that it gave increased speed in conditions that otherwise would reduce speed (like shallow water.) This speed increased as your tumble skill increased.

This is the baseline for tumble-based movement, which should never have been in the game in the first place.

What increased tumble score should do is to increase your tumbling options (already does this) and make your tumbles more effective at avoiding damage in combat. Give a tumbling character a dodge chance increase at some low level that effectively mitigates some of the damage they take. Increment the dodge chance by a small amount, maybe a fifth of a point of dodge for each point of tumble with no upwards cap on tumble skill.

From the design perspective I think it is dangerous to add bonuses while tumbling. A percentage dodge already scales as content gets tougher. If they boost it with tumble score that avoidance grows to be more and more powerful as tumble score increases. If they have a stat squish or a skill squish suddenly everything is out of whack. I hope SSG learns from many cycles of doing this exact thing and considers systems that are much more stable. I expect 100's of hours of future design work from their current tumble choices and I expect players to lose out on quality of play from SSG's inability to make the system work from both a design and an implementation perspective.

K.I.S.S would say to reuse the hireling flag as the visual for the center of a tumble radius and let players do whatever they can within that radius. This frees them up to whatever they want with tumble in the design trees and it is more stable than managing charges. No silly delays required, no reworking who gets how many charges.

 

[Episkopos]

It's quite simple. Either SSG reverses the changes they made to Tumble, or they lose both my VIP subscription and any future potential purchases. I don't need seven pages of discussion, nor do I need anyone's endorsement. What I need is for SSG to listen, and hitting them in the pocketbook is the only way that may happen. And if it doesn't, at least I still have my hard-earned entertainment dollars to show for it.

 

[Guntango]

Labeling this change as better focused for defense is a joke, too; the charges run out and don't allow a tank to consistently get back into position on the kobold-hopping Death's Teeth in skellies. We've now got to run to it every time it hops instead of just hitting tumble forward once, intiming again, and keeping position.

Just undo this failed experiment and return to old tumble that everyone was fine with.

 

[Alcides]

Is the tumble nerf why we have more lag now?

 

[Guntango]

obvs.