Two Weapon Fighting

[Coffey]

I have seen a lot of improvement in THF and SWF in the last few years. I like THF a lot and dont mind SWF now with the improved cleave speed. My favorite fighting style is TWF though.

I would like to see Dance of Death added to the TWF feat to make it more in line with the other fighting styles so classes other than Ranger can have an AOE option. It could be made with the same ST increments as the THF line as well.

 

[Coffey]

Two Handed Speciality now allows ST to work with a Bastard Sword or Dwarven War Axe while SWF.

DoD is not so special anymore since ST has now been added as an option to SWF and copied over to THF.

Please stop DoD from stacking with THF and THS and make it a Feat so we no longer have to MC with Ranger to gain access to it.

Cheers

 

[saekee]

It is one of the Tempest’s signature attacks, probably wouldn’t fly with devs or community.

The only way I could see it being done is some special feat avaialble to all that is the same but weaker and a longer cooldown; then tempest gets a heavily buffed version.

 

[CBDunk]

The root issue here is that TWF by itself lacks any sort of effective AoE or CC... and there aren't even a lot of options available through other feats or enhancements to remedy that.

TWF is good (though not the best) for single target damage, and beats out other forms in NUMBER of attacks and thus chances for various special options to proc.

Unfortunately, what TWF does well comes nowhere close to covering for what it does not. Most DDO dungeons are; pack of mobs A, pack of mobs B, pack of mobs C, et cetera. A fighting style which can only deal with the mobs one at a time is crippled by this design. Maybe that would be ok if it were better against single mobs (e.g. bosses) by a similar margin, but it isn't.

Logically, I'd expect something like;
THF - Best for melee against single mobs
SWF - Best for melee with defense and/or casting
TWF - Best for melee against groups of mobs

The first two arguably work out that way... except that they are both also better than TWF against groups of mobs.

 

[Onyxia2016]

I always thought the DoD strikethrough persisting through weapon swap was a bug or exploit. There are many other feats/abilities that are removed if you change weapons.

IMO allowing non-Tempest builds to have access to DoD would be bad.
I do however agree with @saekee. A variation, albeit less powerful, version could be available to non-tempest builds.

 

[dur]

Well, it makes sense to me so I voted it up, but I still don't get why Sacred Fist is Paladin, so I'll just watch y'all debate the meta (hmm, am I using that word correctly?)

 

[Onyxia2016]

Well, it makes sense to me so I voted it up, but I still don't get why Sacred Fist is Paladin, so I'll just watch y'all debate the meta (hmm, am I using that word correctly?)

Agree, Sacred Fist Paladin makes about as much sense as a Sun Elf Cleric (Morning Load Iconic). Two things that should never be spoken in the same sentence.

To think they passed up a chance to have a Dark Apostate Paladin version. Light/Dark, Yin/Yang however you want to see it.
It would have been glorious. Instead we got a paladin in handwraps and at the same time took the preverbal dump on the paladins of myth and legend. May as well create a plate wearing monk that uses a sword and shield..

I digress, it is a sore subject for me. I always gravitated to the paladin in PnP and every game I play that had the option. Is a betrayal to the brotherhood.

 

[Gyuma Bei]

Well, it makes sense to me so I voted it up, but I still don't get why Sacred Fist is Paladin, so I'll just watch y'all debate the meta (hmm, am I using that word correctly?)

The actual Sacred Fist from the 3.5E tabletop was a Prestige Class and required at least level one Divine Spellcasting as well as some feats (Improved Unarmed, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Stunning Fist). given the prerequisites, the fastest way to get the Prestige Class was at least one level as a Monk and at least one level either as a Cleric or 4 levels as a Paladin.

However, DDO has a different way of doing Prestige Classes as Enhancement trees. And since Cleric was already getting Dark Apostate as the Archetype, Pally was the logical choice to go with it.

Still, they should have at least allowed the Sacred Fist to remain centered wearing Light Armor (as the tabletop version didn't get any penalty for wearing light other than losing Fast Movement). Having the "only cloth armor restriction" as a semi-tank is balls.

 

[Onyxia2016]

Druids cast divine spells. Would have made more sense for a Druid/Monk mash-up. Many of the same restriction apply to both.

 

[dur]

'cept Druids aren't exactly Lawful.. Sub-class of Monk (ffs) makes the most sense.. but I'm not familiar with Monk, let alone Sacred Fist.

OOH! I dunno about the light armor, but.. do light weapons uncenter Sacred Fist? If so Paly def makes no sense.

 

[Onyxia2016]

'cept Druids aren't exactly Lawful.. Sub-class of Monk (ffs) makes the most sense.. but I'm not familiar with Monk, let alone Sacred Fist.

OOH! I dunno about the light armor, but.. do light weapons uncenter Sacred Fist? If so Paly def makes no sense.

You are correct in that Druid and Lawful do not mix. I was thinking more of a Monk that dips into some Druid kind of like Dark Ranger does with rouge. This should get around the alignment issue and still work with the lore and rules.

Monks can use some weapons without becoming uncentered. Handwraps, kamas, quarterstaff and shurikens.

I can see the Sacred Fist being the Monk archetype but not the Paladin's.

 

[voenixa121]

Agree, Sacred Fist Paladin makes about as much sense as a Sun Elf Cleric (Morning Load Iconic). Two things that should never be spoken in the same sentence.

To think they passed up a chance to have a Dark Apostate Paladin version. Light/Dark, Yin/Yang however you want to see it.
It would have been glorious. Instead we got a paladin in handwraps and at the same time took the preverbal dump on the paladins of myth and legend. May as well create a plate wearing monk that uses a sword and shield..

I digress, it is a sore subject for me. I always gravitated to the paladin in PnP and every game I play that had the option. Is a betrayal to the brotherhood.

I don't quite see the problem with an unarmed paladin. I think it fits pretty well.
An edgy "dark paladin" however seems incredibly boring. Paladins are lawful good.

 

[Clagor]

I have seen a lot of improvement in THF and SWF in the last few years. I like THF a lot and dont mind SWF now with the improved cleave speed. My favorite fighting style is TWF though.

I would like to see Dance of Death added to the TWF feat to make it more in line with the other fighting styles so classes other than Ranger can have an AOE option. It could be made with the same ST increments as the THF line as well.

I like the idea because i dont want to make many clicks before/during each combat and the Tempest Enhancement Dance of Dead is currently a must have for a Two Weapon Fighting Ranger dealing with mobs...

I could imagine the following changes:

Add the following Strikethrough chances to the Two Weapon Fighting feats (lesser values than the Two Handed Fighting equivalents)
-Two Weapon Fighting +40%
-Improved Two Weapon Fighting +20%
-Greater Two Weapon Fighting +20%
-Perfect Two Weapon Fighting +20%
-Oversized Two Weapon Fighting +20% (so it becomes more attracting)
This way while TWF style is active you have a chance to hit at least one additional target.

Then the Tempest Enhancement Dance of Dead can be changed to one of the following
-doubles you current Strikethrough chance (bringing it near to the original +200% chance)
-add 10% stacking attack & run speed (I generally miss a stacking attack/run speed for Rangers)
-... (whatever you want to see here, stay realistic please)

Would love to see these changes for simplifying/harmonizing Two Weapon Fighting without the need of Tempest Enhancement Dance of Dead.

And while we at it, can we change the Tempest Enhancement Glowing Storm to go off when we Vorpal hit instead the need to click again and again?

 

[saekee]

I admit that the rapid slash change has greatly aided my assassin in leveling since it is my only AoE.

How about we do something like they did with Precise shot in that it includes Archer's Focus? There has to be some drawback though to using it.

Feat with Improved TWF: Dance of death. For six seconds, you attack all enemies in a small arc in front of you, but with -1 crit range and multiplier, -6 AC, and no offhand doublestrike. Cooldown: 20 seconds.
Tempest upgrades this to its current form.

 

[dur]

I don't quite see the problem with an unarmed paladin. I think it fits pretty well.
An edgy "dark paladin" however seems incredibly boring. Paladins are lawful good.

It's a Paladin - Sword and Shield (or not) and medium Armor, minimum. How does that get .. changed.. to monk fists?

*and yes, Paly's are LG. Period.

**Anomen, ffs.

 

[Coffey]

How about we do something like they did with Precise shot in that it includes Archer's Focus?

This is precisely what i meant by adding DoD to the TWF feat! Except thatt it can be moved to the hotbar as an active ability.

There has to be some drawback though to using it.

I think Tier 5 Tempest (Thousand Cuts, the Cores etc) makes it better over all anyways. I would suggest giving back the capstone 25% offhand Double Strike to Tempest though (that was a kick in the nards).

IMO allowing non-Tempest builds to have access to DoD would be bad.
I do however agree with @saekee. A variation, albeit less powerful, version could be available to non-tempest builds.

It would have less ST than Tempest DoD if it copied the THF increments. DoD is only on for 10 secs which is half of the full time ST of THF and THS to begin with.

I always thought the DoD strikethrough persisting through weapon swap was a bug or exploit. There are many other feats/abilities that are removed if you change weapons.

It definetly is a bug that may never be fixed. The constant weapon swaps would be rediculous while running it.

I like the idea because i dont want to make many clicks before/during each combat and the Tempest Enhancement Dance of Dead is currently a must have for a Two Weapon Fighting Ranger dealing with mobs...

I could imagine the following changes:

Add the following Strikethrough chances to the Two Weapon Fighting feats (lesser values than the Two Handed Fighting equivalents)
-Two Weapon Fighting +40%
-Improved Two Weapon Fighting +20%
-Greater Two Weapon Fighting +20%
-Perfect Two Weapon Fighting +20%
-Oversized Two Weapon Fighting +20% (so it becomes more attracting)
This way while TWF style is active you have a chance to hit at least one additional target.

Then the Tempest Enhancement Dance of Dead can be changed to one of the following
-doubles you current Strikethrough chance (bringing it near to the original +200% chance)
-add 10% stacking attack & run speed (I generally miss a stacking attack/run speed for Rangers)
-... (whatever you want to see here, stay realistic please)

Would love to see these changes for simplifying/harmonizing Two Weapon Fighting without the need of Tempest Enhancement Dance of Dead.

And while we at it, can we change the Tempest Enhancement Glowing Storm to go off when we Vorpal hit instead the need to click again and again?

I think the same ST increments as THF should be fair giving Tempest an edge (other reasons listed above).

THF is so simple and efficient to play since DoD mechanics were put in place. Now the same for THS while SWF with Hand and a Half weapons. Lets also not forget about the great Druid Bear form is since ST was added.

I would like TWF in general to be better all round so it is fun to play again with other classes outside of Tempest.

 

[Coffey]

It is one of the Tempest’s signature attacks, probably wouldn’t fly with devs or community.

They can just call it something else like they did with Strike Through.

 

[Thor]

Yeah, or just add it to twf and redo the tempest tree, which is nothing special. Maybe add the crit multi and crit range in the tree and build a good melee tree, something inline with KOTC for paladins. Nice 'gestion Coffey