There are likely a handful of cases where non-IoD weapons are still preferable (e.g. I still like my Hallowed Splinters), but the main reason is simply that not everyone HAS IoD weapons yet. I've got the regular IoD Heavy Crossbow, but I've been running the raid regularly since it came out and still haven't seen an Attuned version drop yet. I have enough Dread runes to purchase one (maybe two), but I've been holding off on that until I get more of the OTHER 'raid only' stuff so I can just buy the few missing items.
U62 Preview 2 W Scalar Revamp
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There are likely a handful of cases where non-IoD weapons are still preferable (e.g. I still like my Hallowed Splinters), but the main reason is simply that not everyone HAS IoD weapons yet. I've got the regular IoD Heavy Crossbow, but I've been running the raid regularly since it came out and still haven't seen an Attuned version drop yet. I have enough Dread runes to purchase one (maybe two), but I've been holding off on that until I get more of the OTHER 'raid only' stuff so I can just buy the few missing items.
Nah, I even commented in the last thread that "if previous experience serves" this was set in stone as soon as the post went live. I can't think of any "proposed" change like this that has been modified in a major way once it gets to Lamnia. Even obvious bugs that players find are generally ignored, it's one of my peeves with the game.
I'm actually pleasantly surprised that the issue with randgen either wasn't intentional and will be fixed or got rethought.
Elminster
Well-known member
Yeah but the other raids will definitely lose their luster and be in less demand. One of the reasons I run VoD for instance is trying my luck for a Tail with Mythic and Reaper bonus on it. But... not anymore.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
Wave is still relevant.
The XP changes that ultimately went into U60 were radically different from both of the preview versions that were put on Lamannia.
Spook
Well-known member
The changes were only postponed not cancelled
Statements that they still plan to reshuffle the XP system, in some yet to be determined ways at some unspecified point in the future, don't change the fact that what went up on Lamannia for that was clearly NOT "set in stone". Indeed, the 1st Lamannia preview, the 2nd Lamannia preview, and what actually went live were each significantly different.
You know what might be a good way to encourage them to listen to feedback? Acknowledging it when they DO.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
If your principles makes you upset about losing 0.2 [W] the problem lies soley with your principles and no action should be taken to console you.
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The Blonde
Catalogues Bugs
You can't say something offensive and then add "no offense" and think you're in the clear.
Abandoning the XP changes and fixing the issue with randgen makes two instances where they rethought something or at least fixed a bug. Vs who even knows how many times feedback was ignored. However, you are correct, that's more than zero instances. I didn't really follow that one because I tend to kill every single mob I see for the kill bonuses anyway, so it wouldn't have affected me.
To be fair, it's at least encouraging that the these two examples are both fairly recent. That and the shift to minor adjustments to trees instead of waiting until they have time to completely rethink one top-to-bottom are both certainly welcome changes in development style if they stick. We'll see.
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Saltmarsh saw two major changes to its loot due to player feedback,
It had 1k sentient exp added to every chest's drop table because "heroic items dropping in legendary means the quests are really bad for feeding your weapons" and eventually got the heroic items replaced with legendary ones anyway due to feedback.
Multiple set bonuses have had their values made consistent due to player feedback, many of the recent balance adjustments have been longstanding points of player feedback such as archmage Arcane Blast and Bolt being undertuned, the entire moving imbues up to 1d8 (then nerfing them to 75% scaling) is because people constantly complain the class they're playing has a worse imbue - that one kinda monkey pawed.
This entire overhaul to weapon W scaling? Did you SEE the feedback to the Fire Over Morgrave weapons? A lot of it, including my own was that it's almost impossible to see us replacing Attuned Bone Weapons for years unless future weapons just do more damage.
And now weapon damage is going to get a little bit higher with every single level just to ensure there's at least some reason to consider an upgrade.
Feedback is used a lot more often than we as players tend to give credit but typically the ones most vocal claiming feedback never gets used probably aren't paying attention to the feedback of others and probably don't give the greatest feedback themselves.
Spook
Well-known member
I think some are missing the point slightly: of course Devs listen to feedback they would be foolish not to. But once something hits Lamannia it is going Live because the engineering work has already been done. No amount of begging or pleading will prevent a change going live once it hits Lamannia.
Once a change hits Lamannia there are at most 2 ways to influence the Devs:
1) persuade them to delay the changes until concerns have been addressed (eg xp changes until it is possible to hit conquest when on the critical path)
2) adjust the numbers within the new system (eg U57 hp changes)
This is why it feels like they dont listen to feedback because normally it is "I dont like this change it back" - this is the type of feedback that will be ignored because of the time and effort already spent on it (eg Amber temple)
What most of us try to advocate is getting potential changes in front of players before Lamannia because by then it is too late
Once a change hits Lamannia there are at most 2 ways to influence the Devs:
1) persuade them to delay the changes until concerns have been addressed (eg xp changes until it is possible to hit conquest when on the critical path)
2) adjust the numbers within the new system (eg U57 hp changes)
This is why it feels like they dont listen to feedback because normally it is "I dont like this change it back" - this is the type of feedback that will be ignored because of the time and effort already spent on it (eg Amber temple)
What most of us try to advocate is getting potential changes in front of players before Lamannia because by then it is too late
Nobody is missing the point. What you say above is just demonstrably false. You've ADMITTED that it is false. You list EXAMPLES of it being false.
They can and DO revert and/or adjust changes as a result of feedback AFTER they have been put on Lamannia. Not as much as I, or presumably you, would LIKE... but it DOES happen.
Fully agree that they'd be MUCH better served requesting feedback BEFORE doing development. Just not down with the fiction.
So if your feedback is ignored, you must not have given good feedback? I guess that's one way to conclude that the devs are usually right if that's your mental goal.
I never meant to say that they never act on any of our feedback. That would be absurd. However in my experience, in the past once something is on Lamnia, and thus the first time that most players have any idea what the details will look like, it very rarely changes much whether players bring up good reasons to modify it or not. Even obvious bugs have sometimes been reported and still gone live.
We could argue back and forth about whether your examples constitute major or minor changes. IMO, abandoning the planned XP changes is still pretty much the only compelling example of a major change I have seen brought up. Maybe changing the weapon scaling to apply to randgen if that wasn't originally planned. If it was planned from the start, that's just a bug fix (which are also rarer than I think they should be, but do at least happen occasionally).
Tweaking a set bonus or adding sentient XP to a loot table does not come across as a major change to me. But of course YMMV.
Like I said, I am encouraged that the dev philosophy seems to have potentially changed lately. I especially like the ongoing minor tweaks to trees. We'll see if it sticks.
Regardless, I'm done with this thread.
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nenetteblackmoor
Well-known member
Many people are posting numerous opinions, but to summarize, it becomes one request.
Everyone is simply requesting clear rules and explicit statements because the rules for raid weapons are not clear.
We're just pointing out the areas that need clarification when creating new rules, and it's clear that if there's a rule overhaul, the developers must state it explicitly.
While individual cases are important, there has been no mention regarding the handling of raid items. Whether to inherit past raid rules or create new ones is the responsibility of the development team, and if there is a decision to eliminate raid rules, it must be explicitly stated as part of the rule overhaul.
Developers should promptly post rules regarding the handling of raid weapons.
It's important, so I'll say it again. Developers need to promptly post rules for raid items, not individual cases.
Providing feedback on only a portion of the rules without the full context being disclosed is not feasible and is a source of misunderstanding.
Everyone is simply requesting clear rules and explicit statements because the rules for raid weapons are not clear.
We're just pointing out the areas that need clarification when creating new rules, and it's clear that if there's a rule overhaul, the developers must state it explicitly.
While individual cases are important, there has been no mention regarding the handling of raid items. Whether to inherit past raid rules or create new ones is the responsibility of the development team, and if there is a decision to eliminate raid rules, it must be explicitly stated as part of the rule overhaul.
Developers should promptly post rules regarding the handling of raid weapons.
It's important, so I'll say it again. Developers need to promptly post rules for raid items, not individual cases.
Providing feedback on only a portion of the rules without the full context being disclosed is not feasible and is a source of misunderstanding.
Sholekar
Well-known member
As far as devs accepting feedback and changing things, when they updated epic destinies there was originally a whole charge builder and spender system with epic strikes. This was met with pushback and what we got was quite different. They redesigned the whole thing. Maybe not from the ground up, but pretty close.
They may not accept all feedback and change accordingly, but the Devs absolutely have a history of listening, even in situations of spent development resources.
They may not accept all feedback and change accordingly, but the Devs absolutely have a history of listening, even in situations of spent development resources.
I really think raid weapons don't need to end up with an extra .6w over their level (it'd be kind of absurd given they also have raid dice and if it'd be a rule going forward it'd lead to really inflated dps) but legendary raid weapons that are currently 5w base and are facing a reduction should just be left at 5w, from fellblade to lamplighter there's not really a reason to make them weaker, as things stand they'll be outscaled in time as weapons we'll get in future will actually be stronger with this new scaling and that is perfectly fine.
There's no need to jump the gun and make them worse immediately.
There's no need to jump the gun and make them worse immediately.
Can we get a nerf to LGS effects so that people will ever upgrade past them? Standardize them to 5% proc rate like Cursed Maelstrom, so there is both less lag and it is closer to vulnerability stacking being a group effort.
Vecna weapons aren't unused because of W scaling, they are unused because they aren't sentient LGS weapons.
Vecna weapons aren't unused because of W scaling, they are unused because they aren't sentient LGS weapons.
nobodynobody1426
Well-known member
I agree that the existing tiered raid weapons need to stay at 5w and let the system apply to everything that is 30+. They will be raising the level cap again and that'll entail new weapons and such.
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