Update 66 Preview 2: Dragon Lord Fighter Archetype

[Shear-buckler]

Apologies for trying again (and totally understand if this is too OP to implement):

Any chance we could get the Dragon Lord tree as an unlockable racial tree for Dragonborn like Arcane Archer is for elves? It is the year of the dragon after all - where any Dragonborn could be a Dragon Lord? Even if it was just an option for this year, it would lead to a lot more Dragonborn running around. It could be done just like Arcane Archer, a T3 racial enhancement for 4 action points.

It would make Dragonborn even more unique, and the build options would be huge. Dragonborn Paladins, Sacred Fist, Bards, and Warlocks would all be interesting Charisma builds with the addition of the Dragon Lord tree. It also gives the race a way to add in imbue dice, which seems like something Dragonborn should have (again like elves and Arcane Archer).

Celebrate Year of the Dragon - release the Dragonborn Dragon Lords!

This would be crazy. Let's do it! It's not more broken than a lot of existing stuff.

 

[Striga]

Apologies for trying again (and totally understand if this is too OP to implement):

Any chance we could get the Dragon Lord tree as an unlockable racial tree for Dragonborn like Arcane Archer is for elves? It is the year of the dragon after all - where any Dragonborn could be a Dragon Lord? Even if it was just an option for this year, it would lead to a lot more Dragonborn running around. It could be done just like Arcane Archer, a T3 racial enhancement for 4 action points.

It would make Dragonborn even more unique, and the build options would be huge. Dragonborn Paladins, Sacred Fist, Bards, and Warlocks would all be interesting Charisma builds with the addition of the Dragon Lord tree. It also gives the race a way to add in imbue dice, which seems like something Dragonborn should have (again like elves and Arcane Archer).

Celebrate Year of the Dragon - release the Dragonborn Dragon Lords!

I liked this idea last time and I still like it!

 

[Lotoc]

Honestly, I really support the Dragonlord racial tree idea, because at the moment Dragonborn does a very poor job of supporting melee builds using the race relative to other races - which is just weird for one of the 3 races with a strength bonus (Razorclaw, Half Orc, Dragonborn).

 

[Mordenkainen]

Hard Disagree.

Dragonlord is an actual unique class. Arcane Archer is not a class in of itself, just an enhancement line.

That would be like giving Dwarf access to the frenzied berserker line... just because it's "thematic"... even though said Dwarf is a sorcerer.

Makes no sense at all. You want to do Dragonlord stuff then actually be a Dragonlord.

 

[CBDunk]

Any chance we could get the Dragon Lord tree as an unlockable racial tree for Dragonborn like Arcane Archer is for elves?... It could be done just like Arcane Archer, a T3 racial enhancement for 4 action points.

There's an open spot at T3 (and T4) in the last column of the Dragonborn racial enhancements tree.

Could also be an option for a slightly altered 'Dragonborn Iconic' tree.

I'll also just say, this is a cool idea in general. Anything that increases the potential diversity of possible builds. Similar things could be done by giving Warforged racial enhancement access to one of the Artificer trees, Shadar-kai (or Drow) access to the Dark Apostate tree (i.e. undead form for ANY class/combo), Half-orcs access to the Frenzied Berserker tree (w/ Orcish Rage as a pre-req), Acolyte of the Skin option for Tieflings, et cetera.

 

[CBDunk]

That would be like giving Dwarf access to the frenzied berserker line... just because it's "thematic"... even though said Dwarf is a sorcerer.

By this 'logic' Elves shouldn't have access to Arcane Archer because said Elf could be a melee build.

Dragonbornlord is both a class AND an enhancement tree. Enhancement trees are currently shared between classes, races (in that the iconic trees are variants of the base race), and in the one case, a class and a race. There is no reason the game can't have more of that.

 

[Mordenkainen]

By this 'logic' Elves shouldn't have access to Arcane Archer because said Elf could be a melee build.

Dragonborn is both a class AND an enhancement tree. Enhancement trees are currently shared between classes, races (in that the iconic trees are variants of the base race), and in the one case, a class and a race. There is no reason the game can't have more of that.

Dragonborn is not a class first of all.

Dragonlord is a class. You are so blending the lines then why even have classes to begin with?

In fact, in the official 3E and now 5E of D&D, Archetypes were literally called ,"single-class multiclassing". In fact, multi-classing doesn't even exist as a base 5E official core rule but as an optional rule.

So even here that's between classes (which I can understand since you're taking the class) but gaining access to the defining abilities of a specific class exclusively based on race is asinine and quite frankly racist.

 

[Phaaze]

7% multiplicative DR is not 200 PRR. Incoming damage is equal to (100/(100+PRR))*other multiplicative factors, so that would imply that 1/5*0.93=0.186 is the same as 1/7=0.14. It's closer to 40 additional PRR (37 to be exact).

To elaborate: 7% being equivalent to 200 PRR implies that the 7% is calculated on *pre*-PRR damage, and then applied unadjusted to reduce *post*-prr damage. This wouldn’t be reducing r10 damage by 7%, it’s reducing r10 damage by 31% or so. You can test this isn’t how barb DR works pretty easily: spike PRR to around 500 on a barb with 14% dr and step into elite. If this theory is how it works, you should be taking <5 damage per hit (16.6%-14%)=2.4% of incoming damage.

You can also double check this by comparing the damage emergencies and cammy were taking (on fighter and barb tank respectively) tanking Razor Arm on r10 chrono. They’re not 30% apart-they both take right around 2.9 k per bolt, which makes sense, because emergencies is abt 40-50 prr ahead because of barb, but doesn’t have the barb dr. IDK the knock, etc. situation, but it doesn’t account for as much difference as that interp of barb DR would create.

Related barb "DR" is actually energy absorption to everything including slash/bludgeon/pierce except bane. Can check this by checking elemental defenses after getting dr 3% and notice it is that across the board.


Pretty sure bladeforged, thorn knight, radiant forcefield, unbreakable forcefield, arcane barrior and marcotechnic mantle are the only sources of physical absorption in the game.

 

[CBDunk]

Dragonborn is not a class first of all.

I meant to say that 'Dragonlord' is both a class and an enhancement tree.

Dragonlord is a class. You are so blending the lines then why even have classes to begin with?

Because at this point it would be too much work to remove them and it isn't consistent with D&D history.

Other than that... I'd be all for it. You get a racial enhancement tree and then pick up to six from any of the heroic enhancement trees. Convert other class features into feats or option lines that you can select from to mix and match (e.g. I want Rage abilities and... Turn Undead).

Would be great. Vastly more interesting across the board.

Allowing a race with draconic blood access to some of the same abilities as a class infused with draconic power? A perfectly reasonable tiny step in the same direction, entirely consistent with the design and history of the game.

 

[Mordenkainen]

I meant to say that 'Dragonlord' is both a class and an enhancement tree.



Because at this point it would be too much work to remove them and it isn't consistent with D&D history.

Other than that... I'd be all for it. You get a racial enhancement tree and then pick up to six from any of the heroic enhancement trees. Convert other class features into feats or option lines that you can select from to mix and match (e.g. I want Rage abilities and... Turn Undead).

Would be great. Vastly more interesting across the board.

Allowing a race with draconic blood access to some of the same abilities as a class infused with draconic power? A perfectly reasonable tiny step in the same direction, entirely consistent with the design and history of the game.

Then you would definitely need to get rid of classes since you're asking for mix n' match whatever enhancement lines regardless of class.


I'm not totally against this but it'll bleed too much into the group-play aspect of D&D ... one of the reasons why the designers of 5th edition made multi-classing optional and buried in Chapter 4 rather than front of the book with character creation.

What you're asking for is more PoE, which works for ... well PoE.

 

[Shear-buckler]

What you're asking for is more PoE, which works for ... well PoE.

What is the problem with elves accessing arcane archers exactly?

 

[Mordenkainen]

What is the problem with elves accessing arcane archers exactly?

Nothing.

I have a problem with access to a class defining enhancement line solely based on race.

 

[Fleming]

Hard Disagree.

Dragonlord is an actual unique class. Arcane Archer is not a class in of itself, just an enhancement line.

That would be like giving Dwarf access to the frenzied berserker line... just because it's "thematic"... even though said Dwarf is a sorcerer.

Makes no sense at all. You want to do Dragonlord stuff then actually be a Dragonlord.

Dragonlord is a class but also the name of one of the enhancement tree's that a Dragonlord gets.

Giving the single Dragonlord enhacement tree to Dragonborn is absolutely no different to giving Elves access to a single ranger tree. Apart from the names.

I love the idea and I don't even play Dragonborn. It might not be possible for balance reasons, but giving a single class enhancement tree to a specific race or races has already been done, so lets not discount it on that basis.

 

[Fleming]

Nothing.

I have a problem with access to a class defining enhancement line solely based on race.

So, like Arcane Archer?

 

[Mordenkainen]

Also, if anything the Dragonlord enhancement line DOES NOT FIT for Dragonborn. Look at the line, it's basically designed to kill dragons using the stolen abilities of dragons to do it. The Lord of Dragons vs. the Dragon Slave... I betcha the devs threw around the naming for this class and 'DragonSlayer' was one in the pitch bag.

 

[Mordenkainen]

So, like Arcane Archer?

Arcane Archer is NOT a class though, it's an enhancement that's part of the Ranger class but it certainly does NOT DEFINE the Ranger class.

The literal Dragonlord enhancement line defines Dragonlord for what it is.

I know what you guys are trying to do but sorry folks you can't steal Dragonlord, rush it to some chop shop, and cut it up for parts.

You would be degrading an entire class (brand spankin to boot) to the point of obsolescence.

 

[Fleming]

The Dragonlord tree does not define the Dragonlord class. It's just one part of it, in the same way Arcane Archer is just one part of ranger. You are saying that if Arcane Archer tree was labelled Ranger then it would no longer be viable for Elves. Just because of the letters in its name...

You would be degrading an entire class (brand spankin to boot) to the point of obsolescence.

Yes no one plays a ranger that isn't an Elf on Live....

 

[Mordenkainen]

The Dragonlord tree does not define the Dragonlord class. It's just one part of it, in the same way Arcane Archer is just one part of ranger. You are saying that if Arcane Archer tree was labelled Ranger then it would no longer be viable for Elves. Just because of the letters in its name...



Yes no one plays a ranger that isn't an Elf on Live....

Again, I know what you guys are doing. If you want to see numbers go up higher, go grab your calculator.

Let's pretend this is still D&D and a game.

 

[Fleming]

If you are saying it will be unbalanced, you maybe right. It would be handy if you discussed how or why.

It would make it possible to mix enhancement tree's that could not otherwise occur, but then so did Arcane Archer, and we have all the global enhancement tree's which mix in with 'everything'.

 

[Sorccadin]

Is it a viable option to consider an overhaul for Ravager Core 3, similar to what was done for "Visage of Terror"? Perhaps scaling it off intimidate would provide more relevance. Another possibility could be applying the demoralizing effect on crits instead of vorpal, or incorporating it as a bonus on intimidate to enhance synergy with the shaken effect from T2 "Fear Me!"

Currently, the DC20 Will on Vorpal ability seems largely ineffective after the early stages of the game. While the core's stats are good, the flavor aspect appears to be impractical.