VIP Perk Suggestion

[Dom]

As someone who has been playing this game continuously since 2010, I have done the levelling/past life grind and reaper experience farm over and over again. At this point, it is a mind-numbing process that gets very repetitive. To address this issue, along with other issues, with an “all-in-one” solution, below is a suggestion that would be beneficial to both SSG as a company, and new players, veteran players and players who have quit/taken a break from the game (this is something that could entice them to come back):

VIP Perk Suggestion – The Guide:

For any character (on a VIP account) that has achieved BOTH epic completionist (1x) AND either heroic completionist (1x) or racial completionist, they will be granted access to use “The Guide” on that character to gain all the experience needed to reach level 32 without having to level, just like on Lamannia.

Note: For anyone who doesn’t know, “The Guide” is an NPC on the Lamannia preview server that allows you to gain maximum experience for your character by talking to it.

What Does This Solve?

A few things would be addressed by implementing this:

• Eliminate the gap between new players and veteran players in terms of past lives – a new player would have an easier time catching up with the past life grind by having access to “The Guide”.
  • Every three days (reincarnation timer), players gain a new past life by reincarnating which can equate to accumulating 10 lives per month.
  • To put into perspective how steep the grind is currently, it would take about 3,000 hours of play time (assuming ~16 hours for a 1-30 life) to have a character that has three times every single past life available in the game (186 past lives).
• Create a valuable VIP perk, further incentivizing people to be VIP and actually making it more worthwhile. Many players have cancelled their subscription, especially after the cancellation of the daily gold rolls without replacement for that perk (which we were told we would be getting). Having spoken to a number of players, something like this would make them re-subscribe to VIP.
• Eliminate the redundancy of levelling from 1-30 every life, even if your toon has every single past life available. Obviously, this “grind” shouldn’t be fully eliminated, and thus the access to “The Guide” would be locked behind completionist or racial completionist so that players don’t just have instant access to level cap/past lives.
• Promotes the creation and development of alt characters.

How Does This Benefit SSG?

Of course, SSG will be skeptical of this at first… however there are some positive benefits on their end, including the $$$ factor.

• First and foremost, this would help retain current VIPs as well as attracting new, and even old, VIP subscribers by adding meaningful value.
• This is in line with their goal of (or at least this is the way it comes across) tailoring to new(er) players by helping to reduce the disparity between new players and veteran players, at least from the past life grind aspect.
• Hearts of wood would still be needed to TR, thus players will still be buying hearts from the store.
• XP pots will be used for the initial levelling grind as well as obtaining Reaper Experience.
• There would likely be an increase in the amount of jewelers and sentient toolkits, dino bone picks, etc. as players would be changing builds more often.
• More alts = more $$$

This is something that I have come up with and ran by a handful of people to get their input. Definitely open to more feedback, but it seems like a perk like this is something that would check all the boxes and be beneficial for both SSG and its players in the long run.

 

[Dude]

Interesting thought, though I would suggest requiring a VIP sub active for 6 months to a year to prevent abuse.

I agree that there has to be some offset for SSG to make money, but I think your suggestion would mean they would have to change their subscription plans. Currently, you can be VIP with only a month to month subscription. That won't work if OP's suggestion is to be a VIP benefit. Since people sub for the HCL season and then unsub, they would be forced into a longer subscription that might or might not be ok with them.

 

[Dom]

Ok, I understand your point just 2 questions.
1) How is this helping the argument some are making that new players can't get into groups or give up because of the "power gap"? They would still need to flesh out 15 lives and will have a hard time accomplishing this because of the argument players can't get into groups or give up because of the power gap. I understand you want to give them motivation however, they still need to catch up on those 15 lives and after 15 lives, they are right in the thick of it. With only 3 past lives on some of my toons I am able to join any LFM and contribute.
2) Being a VIP perk, shouldn't this be something available to all VIP's regardless of completionist or not?

Regarding the question about new players finding groups, there would still be groups up as there are a lot of people who would need to finish some past lives as well as people who would be further incentivized to create alt characters which would also need to do those 15 lives. I know a handful of people who only have 1, MAYBE 2, characters that they play but they aren’t interested in starting more alts currently because of the grind of getting all the lives again.

Regarding the second question, this would be great … but with it not being gated behind anything, THAT would eliminate the levelling grind and the amount of LFMs you see because no one would have to level AT ALL.

 

[Dergex]

I really don't support bringing a 1->30+ level skip to the live servers, for VIP or otherwise even if it's limited to people that have some combination of completionist feats. There is however a need for better build testing. I fully support bringing up Lamannia full time rather than just during update tests, even if it's limited to just VIP logins. That would allow for better access to full build testing.

I do also support the release of Veteran Status 3 and maybe even 4 + 5 for alts. Letting alts start at levels 10, 12, and 15 would be a very interesting twist for players. Especially if it was unlocked through total favor or through a combination of favor + completionist + VIP.

 

[Dom]

I agree, but I think the more important question is this: how does it help SSG? They're really the ones that have to buy this pitch and so far it seems to fall short. The $8.33/month they gain most likely won't surpass the amount they lose from Otto's Box sales. Of course no one outside of the company knows for sure, but the assumptions the OP makes about the "more $$$" for SSG is also based on pure conjecture.

Let’s be honest here, a lot of the money that SSG makes come from whales which are the end game players who have been around for a while. And I, along with a lot of other end game players who spend a lot of money on this game, spend a lot more money on xp pots, astral shards, raid timers, toolkits, etc than ottos boxes. Also, people would likely still purchase boxes for a) the timer bypass to reset the TR timer that would still be in affect, b) slayer pots and xp pots to help the levelling grind and rxp grind, c) improved ottos boxes for the greater discovery elixirs, and/or d) to help get through those initial 15 lives on characters that don’t currently have them.

Also, one thing that I think a lot of people aren’t considering is the amount of people that have unsubscribed from VIP but would resubscribe for something like this, or that stopped playing but would come back for something like this. SSG isn’t making money off players who aren’t playing anymore, and barely making money off those that aren’t VIP… bringing back old subs plus all of the new subs would be a lot more revenue for them than you think.

 

[Liy]

I agree, but I think the more important question is this: how does it help SSG? They're really the ones that have to buy this pitch and so far it seems to fall short. The $8.33/month they gain most likely won't surpass the amount they lose from Otto's Box sales. Of course no one outside of the company knows for sure, but the assumptions the OP makes about the "more $$$" for SSG is also based on pure conjecture.

Do you really think they are making a substantial revenue on boxes? I mean, think about this realistically; the cost for an ottos box is stupid high and when they go on sale are likely purchased at a rate of 1 or 2 total per every 50 players. The whales that spend massive amounts of money on boxes are buying them for this specific reason. By giving the VIP option, SSG has the ability to turn a minor piece revenue into a long-term, stable revenue stream. IMO, Even if SSG increased the cost of subscriptions, it would still be worth it for something like this and their VIP subscriber numbers would increase far more than the cost of decreased box purchases.

 

[mikarddo]

Do you really think they are making a substantial revenue on boxes? I mean, think about this realistically; the cost for an ottos box is stupid high and when they go on sale are likely purchased at a rate of 1 or 2 total per every 50 players. The whales that spend massive amounts of money on boxes are buying them for this specific reason. By giving the VIP option, SSG has the ability to turn a minor piece revenue into a long-term, stable revenue stream. IMO, Even if SSG increased the cost of subscriptions, it would still be worth it for something like this and their VIP subscriber numbers would increase far more than the cost of decreased box purchases.

Both sides are pure conjecture as none of us know what kind of revenue SSG is getting from different sources - not do we know how things would work out with the suggestion at hand. Pretending otherwise would be naive.

So, you might be right, or the person you replied to might be right - or most likely none of you are fully right.

Here is my conjecture - which is also pure conjecture.
- Having access to non-stop first time bonusses on cap quests will result in a smaller subset of cap quests (those with good rxp per min) being run much more and everything much less. I consider this bad.
- R6-R8 will become the preferred difficulty because R10 is no longer worth it as the cost in time to relevel for resetting first time bonusses will be gone. I dont mind this too much but it does not seem terrible good to de-invencitive running higher difficulties.
- Having access to first time bonusses non-stop and no need to relevel will make some/many players purchase far fewer xp pots as they no longer have the push to level fast AND get rxp very fast even without pots. Some players will continue to purchase pots because they need to optimize fully but many wont bother as things are already plenty good. Sales of +20 hearts, Ottos boxes and Wishes will plummet.
- Sales on tomes etc for alts will go up and so will VIP.
If that overall is a plus or a minus for SSG money wise is very unclear.


At any rate - the money part is not what I consider the most glaring problem with the suggestion in the OP.

 

[Dude]

Do you really think they are making a substantial revenue on boxes? I mean, think about this realistically; the cost for an ottos box is stupid high and when they go on sale are likely purchased at a rate of 1 or 2 total per every 50 players. The whales that spend massive amounts of money on boxes are buying them for this specific reason. By giving the VIP option, SSG has the ability to turn a minor piece revenue into a long-term, stable revenue stream. IMO, Even if SSG increased the cost of subscriptions, it would still be worth it for something like this and their VIP subscriber numbers would increase far more than the cost of decreased box purchases.

I obviously don't know the numbers, but look at the thread on Otto's boxes. People are literally begging for them.

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/please-could-we-have-ottos-boxes.3233/

 

[Liy]

I obviously don't know the numbers, but look at the thread on Otto's boxes. People are literally begging for them.

https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/please-could-we-have-ottos-boxes.3233/

I did see the thread and at a mere 3 pages and half of each page by 1 person; it is not really any substantial evidence to support. Additionally, a portion of posts talk about how expensive they are and not worth it or how the person just wont buy them at all because of the wait. Again, not great supporting evidence.

 

[Bunker]

ViP perk: allow a normal heroic tr to grant a heroic and racial past life together.

1-20 for 2 past life feats

 

[Dude]

I did see the thread and at a mere 3 pages and half of each page by 1 person; it is not really any substantial evidence to support. Additionally, a portion of posts talk about how expensive they are and not worth it or how the person just wont buy them at all because of the wait. Again, not great supporting evidence.

My whole point across my posts here is that there is no evidence, in terms of cost or benefit to SSG, to either support or refute OP's idea.

 

[Ozz]

I personaly think that Dom has come up with a brilliant Idea. Apart from the toons in my signature I have others that are still at lvl20 when the CAP was 20. It would be nice to get these up and working again so I could have a couple of healers and a couple of tanks to add to my stable for doing raids so that others would then be able to switch toons instead of having to tank all the time. An example of how I used to raid was doing heroic shroud 3 times a day every day so I was using 9 toons for that, running von 5 & 6 and tod and also leveling others. Under the way I see what Dom has proposed could see us get back to something like this

 

[cammy]

If people are literally begging for Otto’s to be back in the store (paying money to literally not have to level or play your game), there’s obviously a major issue with the current grind.

Signed off on seeing anything changes that would allow me to not have to level or run heroic content for the 100th time.

 

[Ozz]

If people are literally begging for Otto’s to be back in the store (paying money to literally not have to level or play your game), there’s obviously a major issue with the current grind.

Signed off on seeing anything changes that would allow me to not have to level or run heroic content for the 100th time.

Only 100 times?

 

[popejubal]

I’d like something similar, but not quite identical - VIP benefit that I can choose one character on each server as my “main” and all of my other characters get the past lives of that main character. Then I can actually make alts and enjoy them at the same time as my main without telling-farming all of those past lives.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

ViP perk: allow a normal heroic tr to grant a heroic and racial past life together.

1-20 for 2 past life feats

You can already gain an iconic + heroic... If you want to require the character to level to 30 to gain this benefit (just like iconic) then I think it both makes sense and is a great addition to the TR options.

I shared this thread in a few other places and am hoping more folks log in to comment. Even if SSG doesn't like any one particular idea that is proposed here- I think it's clear that a lot of players agree that we need:

• A way to respec a character with all the lives without needing to re-level 1-32
• Less lives to grind out
• A shift away from character-based progression towards account-based progression

In some ways, the "leadership" system that Sev described goes even further than we are asking SSG to go, since it offers a significant power-up based on another player's investment in PLs/RXP. City of Heroes had something similar to this and it was well-received. Hopefully someone at SSG is keeping an eye on this thread (as well as all the others with similar suggestions).

 

[Dom]

I’d like something similar, but not quite identical - VIP benefit that I can choose one character on each server as my “main” and all of my other characters get the past lives of that main character. Then I can actually make alts and enjoy them at the same time as my main without telling-farming all of those past lives.

Making an account-based progression system like this, where you only have to grind the lives once on one toon and then all of your alts will have those benefits would be more of a problem for SSG making money as well as it would kill the levelling grind very quickly.

Account based progression is not the way to go, in terms of the past life grind at least.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

Making an account-based progression system like this, where you only have to grind the lives once on one toon and then all of your alts will have those benefits would be more of a problem for SSG making money as well as it would kill the levelling grind very quickly.

Account based progression is not the way to go, in terms of the past life grind at least.

As another poster pointed out, we are all speculating. My guess would be that more $$$ gets spent on pots/boxes for "main" characters than on alts. Numerous people (even those who support your idea) have echoed the idea that while they were happy to grind out lives once, they have zero desire to do so again on an alt. SSG is very likely to add more races/classes/legendary TR/additonal reaper levels/etc. to the game in the future. Swapping to a model of account-based progression would have a significant impact on how players viewed any future level cap expansions as well. The expansion from 20-30 wasn't well-received. When they announced we were going from 30-40 a lot of us cringed. I still hate to think about Legendary TRs even though I fully anticipate they are coming at some point. Account-based progression is definitely the way to go, especially in terms of the past life grind.

EDIT: A ton of focus in these threads is typically spent discussing the money players are willing to spend to gain XP in DDO. Whether it's Ottos Boxes, XP pots, tomes of learning, etc. What I think often gets missed are all the things players would buy for their alts in an account-based progression system. Things like stat tomes, skill tomes, inventory slots, bags, cosmetics, etc.

 

[Neo]

As another poster pointed out, we are all speculating. My guess would be that more $$$ gets spent on pots/boxes for "main" characters than on alts. Numerous people (even those who support your idea) have echoed the idea that while they were happy to grind out lives once, they have zero desire to do so again on an alt. SSG is very likely to add more races/classes/legendary TR/additonal reaper levels/etc. to the game in the future. Swapping to a model of account-based progression would have a significant impact on how players viewed any future level cap expansions as well. The expansion from 20-30 wasn't well-received. When they announced we were going from 30-40 a lot of us cringed. I still hate to think about Legendary TRs even though I fully anticipate they are coming at some point. Account-based progression is definitely the way to go, especially in terms of the past life grind.

EDIT: A ton of focus in these threads is typically spent discussing the money players are willing to spend to gain XP in DDO. Whether it's Ottos Boxes, XP pots, tomes of learning, etc. What I think often gets missed are all the things players would buy for their alts in an account-based progression system. Things like stat tomes, skill tomes, inventory slots, bags, cosmetics, etc.

Account based progression has one glaring issue. It does not really help new players at all. Coming to a game in 2023 and realizing you have a year of grinding even at 10-12 hour days is going to result in one thing. The uninstall button. Especially when other MMOs allow you to spend 20-30 dollars to instantly get a character to level cap with a set of starter gear. Doms suggestion will help ease that burden on new players, returning players. Account based progression is great for the people that have the lives that want to make alts. Doesn't help players that don't have the lives.

And people will still spend the money like you said on tomes etc for their alts under this system.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

Account based progression has one glaring issue. It does not really help new players at all. Coming to a game in 2023 and realizing you have a year of grinding even at 10-12 hour days is going to result in one thing. The uninstall button. Especially when other MMOs allow you to spend 20-30 dollars to instantly get a character to level cap with a set of starter gear. Doms suggestion will help ease that burden on new players, returning players. Account based progression is great for the people that have the lives that want to make alts. Doesn't help players that don't have the lives.

And people will still spend the money like you said on tomes etc for their alts under this system.

I think you move to account-based progression AND consolidate all PL benefits to 1 PL. There's no reason you should need to be a cleric or a dwarf 3 times to gain all the benefits. This reduces the amount of grind for new players, AND adds all the benefits that account-based progression has.

But again, I doubt we will ever see any of our suggestions hit live. So this is all likely just speculation and wish lists.

 

[Dom]

As another poster pointed out, we are all speculating. My guess would be that more $$$ gets spent on pots/boxes for "main" characters than on alts. Numerous people (even those who support your idea) have echoed the idea that while they were happy to grind out lives once, they have zero desire to do so again on an alt. SSG is very likely to add more races/classes/legendary TR/additonal reaper levels/etc. to the game in the future. Swapping to a model of account-based progression would have a significant impact on how players viewed any future level cap expansions as well. The expansion from 20-30 wasn't well-received. When they announced we were going from 30-40 a lot of us cringed. I still hate to think about Legendary TRs even though I fully anticipate they are coming at some point. Account-based progression is definitely the way to go, especially in terms of the past life grind.

EDIT: A ton of focus in these threads is typically spent discussing the money players are willing to spend to gain XP in DDO. Whether it's Ottos Boxes, XP pots, tomes of learning, etc. What I think often gets missed are all the things players would buy for their alts in an account-based progression system. Things like stat tomes, skill tomes, inventory slots, bags, cosmetics, etc.

Respectfully, are you thinking about the feedback you gave me before continuing to post about account-based progression? One of your arguments was that my suggestion would reduce the amount of xp pots, boxes etc purchased by players. An account-based progression system would reduce those sales a lot MORE than my suggestion. Let me try to elaborate on this:

My suggestion:
Minimum 15 lives PER character that you want to have access to the feature discussed. Thats xp pots (at the minimum) for 15 lives worth of questing at least, plus xp pots for the reaper xp grind, then multiply that by the number of alts someone wishes to have.

Your suggestion:
Make them do x amount of lives on ONE character and then have all the benefits available on any toon they have on that account.

How is the grind to cap one toon not going to have a worse affect on revenue than my suggestion?