VIP program is going to literally cost SSG money - not a whiny quit post

[Shear-buckler]

I’ve had airfare refunded many times. Usually in the form of a credit, but have had my credit card refunded on more than one occasion.

Where I am from it would be completely absurd to buy a plane ticket, miss the flight and show up a month later and expect to be able to board.

I’m not asking for a refund from SSG, though. I just believe that if you paid for all 12 items, you should be able to receive all 12 items.

But you don't pay for the items. A part of the transaction to get the items is logging in.

 

[GrizzlyOso]

Where I am from it would be completely absurd to buy a plane ticket, miss the flight and show up a month later and expect to be able to board.


But you don't pay for the items. A part of the transaction to get the items is logging in.

You’re right , we’re just saying it’s dumb. Like if an airline had you check in at the airport every month before your flight until the last month or you couldn’t fly. You could make that “part of the transaction “ - but it would be stupid .

We’re just saying don’t be stupid .

 

[erethizon1]

You’re right , we’re just saying it’s dumb. Like if an airline had you check in at the airport every month before your flight until the last month or you couldn’t fly. You could make that “part of the transaction “ - but it would be stupid .

We’re just saying don’t be stupid .

This is exactly it. We are not arguing that DDO cannot technically get away with what they are planning on somewhat logical grounds. What we are saying is that there is a reason Netflix doesn't send you an email after you haven't logged in for a month asking if you want to cancel your subscription, and there is a reason, when you finally do log back in, they don't say, "Welcome back, you haven't logged in for the last 5 months. Why didn't you just cancel while you were gone?" This is essentially the message DDO is giving when they ask you, "Would you like to collect your April Reward?" when it is now September and everyone around you has 5 months of additional rewards. Just give people all 5 months of rewards when they come back so they are glad they stayed subscribed the whole time and are not asking themselves why they didn't just cancel while they were gone.

 

[Shear-buckler]

This is exactly it. We are not arguing that DDO cannot technically get away with what they are planning on somewhat logical grounds. What we are saying is that there is a reason Netflix doesn't send you an email after you haven't logged in for a month asking if you want to cancel your subscription, and there is a reason, when you finally do log back in, they don't say, "Welcome back, you haven't logged in for the last 5 months. Why didn't you just cancel while you were gone?" This is essentially the message DDO is giving when they ask you, "Would you like to collect your April Reward?" when it is now September and everyone around you has 5 months of additional rewards. Just give people all 5 months of rewards when they come back so they are glad they stayed subscribed the whole time and are not asking themselves why they didn't just cancel while they were gone.

If you subscribe to Netflix but don't watch anything for a few months you don't get free months added to your account when you finally get back on.

What you are gettint at is basically a trade-off between encouraging logging in and encouraging staying subbed when not playing. I would much rather have players log on.

 

[Ahpuch]

If you subscribe to Netflix but don't watch anything for a few months you don't get free months added to your account when you finally get back on.

What you are gettint at is basically a trade-off between encouraging logging in and encouraging staying subbed when not playing. I would much rather have players log on.

And you don't get told by Netflix "No you can't watch Ripley this month because you didn't watch Bodies last month. Come back next month." The SSG VIP system does do something like that. But stupid analogies are stupid so maybe talk about the VIP rewards rather than arguing over inapt analogies.

The problem for many is that SSG has decided to combine two concepts, a loyalty program and a VIP reward program. Those that find loyalty programs tedious don't feel that the VIP system is offering reasonable rewards for being a VIP because those benefits are tied to an extra thing that they don't like. No one says SSG cannot do this. They are saying they don't like and it makes VIP rewards a bad program. All the misplaced analogies in the world won't refute that feeling.

 

[Shear-buckler]

And you don't get told by Netflix "No you can't watch Ripley this month because you didn't watch Bodies last month. Come back next month." The SSG VIP system does do something like that. But stupid analogies are stupid so maybe talk about the VIP rewards rather than arguing over inapt analogies.

The problem for many is that SSG has decided to combine two concepts, a loyalty program and a VIP reward program. Those that find loyalty programs tedious don't feel that the VIP system is offering reasonable rewards for being a VIP because those benefits are tied to an extra thing that they don't like. No one says SSG cannot do this. They are saying they don't like and it makes VIP rewards a bad program. All the misplaced analogies in the world won't refute that feeling.

Well then you might as well tilt at windmills because providing a reward for logging in is not an actual problem. It is in fact perfectly reasonable and a good design.

What makes the reward program bad is the endless reward track. That is what causes both the "FOMO" and the "meh" and will make future subscribers hoplessly behind and left asking what is even the point.

The system would be aweful even if you could accumulate your rewards without logging in. If you get what you want we will be left with a system that is still garbage but achives even less of its intended goals.

 

[Ungermax]

Well then you might as well tilt at windmills because providing a reward for logging in is not an actual problem. It is in fact perfectly reasonable and a good design.

What makes the reward program bad is the endless reward track. That is what causes both the "FOMO" and the "meh" and will make future subscribers hoplessly behind and left asking what is even the point.

The system would be aweful even if you could accumulate your rewards without logging in. If you get what you want we will be left with a system that is still garbage but achives even less of its intended goals.

It kind of makes you think the opposite way about VIP doesnt it. If you buy for 12 months up front you get it cheaper but are obligated to log in, or get behind. To counter it you might then say "Well I'll sub for a month at a time" but then you pay the highest amount per month for that.

 

[Shear-buckler]

It kind of makes you think the opposite way about VIP doesnt it. If you buy for 12 months up front you get it cheaper but are obligated to log in, or get behind. To counter it you might then say "Well I'll sub for a month at a time" but then you pay the highest amount per month for that.

No, not really. You are left equally behind regardless if you sub and fail to log in or if you unsub and fail to log in.

 

[PersonMan]

I'm sure we would all be thrilled if they decided to change the monthly 500pts so that you do not get them anymore unless you log in and talk to some NPC somewhere. Maybe they should also do that with every 100 favor we get. It is just needlessly cumbersome from the player perspective, an extra hoop for seemingly no reason. Many players wanted some form of added convenience from the VIP upgrade, but what we are getting is an added mild inconvenience to go advance a reward system that may or may not provide anything we care about in the future.

The system would be aweful even if you could accumulate your rewards without logging in.

Yes, but it would be slightly less awful. The loyalty track really does not seem to combine well with fully unique rewards. Trying to imagine 5 years down the line and a new player sees what new shiny is being advertised and really loves it and then finds out they have to give out $500 and wait 5 years to get it. I do agree that there are some significant fundamental problems that go well beyond the mild inconvenience of the delivery system.

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

So... I do somewhat empathize with the folks who want a "catch up" mechanic for the months they paid for VIP and didn't log in. However, there are tons of bonuses in DDO you have to log in to receive. It's not like if they run a buddy bonus weekend and I don't log in, I get to apply the buddy bonus when I get back. Same with any other temporary bonus. Same with participating in any temporary event like Night Revels, Mimic Hunt, etc. Also, when they did free daily gold rolls for VIP... you had to log in every day to get those. So not for nothing, but "log in to claim the prize" has been a mechanic of DDO's rewards for quite some time.

I think folks set bad expectations for themselves and then were disappointed that SSG didn't give the farm away with the new VIP rewards. Sorry to all those who feel disappointed, but it is only $8-15/mo after all. I'm sure this thread (and the future 5,000,000 threads about this topic that get started) will contain convincing arguments that sway everyone to agree that the rewards should be increased and the delivery mechanism updated... but at the end of the day it doesn't look like SSG is interested in making any changes to this program. Best of luck to you all as you commiserate over what could/should/would have been.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Yes, but it would be slightly less awful. The loyalty track really does not seem to combine well with fully unique rewards. Trying to imagine 5 years down the line and a new player sees what new shiny is being advertised and really loves it and then finds out they have to give out $500 and wait 5 years to get it. I do agree that there are some significant fundamental problems that go well beyond the mild inconvenience of the delivery system.

The problem you describe would not be elivated by what is asked for to any significant degree. An endless reward track will be a disaster even if you don't have to log on to get the reward.

 

[Ahpuch]

Well then you might as well tilt at windmills because providing a reward for logging in is not an actual problem. It is in fact perfectly reasonable and a good design.

What makes the reward program bad is the endless reward track. That is what causes both the "FOMO" and the "meh" and will make future subscribers hoplessly behind and left asking what is even the point.

My apologies. I had thought that you were defending the program in previous posts. But it seems that the issue was that you have the only valid reason why it is bad and that others concerns are simply wrong.

Personally I think there can be more than one reason why the program is bad. The issue you raise may be valid though it depends on extrapolation on what types of rewards will be available in month 13 and on. Since we don't actually know what those will be its hard to say that there is an impossible to catch up issue. I don't think not getting a VIP Bag of Many Things falls into "can never catch up" type problem. I can think of many ways to create an endless reward track that wouldn't have the problems you fear. Inventing your own bad implementation in your head and then saying "this is bad" is an odd exercise.

But next year it may be a real problem.

Meanwhile the mechanism to distribute rewards is an irritant for many today and saying "Your concerns are wrong because my imagined development of this program next year is worse!" seems .... I don't actually have a forum appropriate word for that.

 

[PersonMan]

Yes, but it would be slightly less awful. The loyalty track really does not seem to combine well with fully unique rewards. Trying to imagine 5 years down the line and a new player sees what new shiny is being advertised and really loves it and then finds out they have to give out $500 and wait 5 years to get it. I do agree that there are some significant fundamental problems that go well beyond the mild inconvenience of the delivery system.

The problem you describe would not be elivated by what is asked for to any significant degree. An endless reward track will be a disaster even if you don't have to log on to get the reward.

"I do agree that there are some significant fundamental problems that go well beyond the mild inconvenience of the delivery system."

and the above

"Trying to imagine 5 years down the line and a new player sees what new shiny is being advertised and really loves it and then finds out they have to give out $500 and wait 5 years to get it."

was an example of that.

Apologies for that being unclear. Probably better worded "It would be slightly less awful, but yes."

 

[Shear-buckler]

My apologies. I had thought that you were defending the program in previous posts. But it seems that the issue was that you have the only valid reason why it is bad and that others concerns are simply wrong.

Personally I think there can be more than one reason why the program is bad. The issue you raise may be valid though it depends on extrapolation on what types of rewards will be available in month 13 and on. Since we don't actually know what those will be its hard to say that there is an impossible to catch up issue. I don't think not getting a VIP Bag of Many Things falls into "can never catch up" type problem. I can think of many ways to create an endless reward track that wouldn't have the problems you fear. Inventing your own bad implementation in your head and then saying "this is bad" is an odd exercise.

But next year it may be a real problem.

Meanwhile the mechanism to distribute rewards is an irritant for many today and saying "Your concerns are wrong because my imagined development of this program next year is worse!" seems .... I don't actually have a forum appropriate word for that.

Well you have not really explained the problem with having to log on to get a reward for logging on. It's a standard practice and not controversial in any way.

 

[Ahpuch]

Well you have not really explained the problem with having to log on to get a reward for logging on. It's a standard practice and not controversial in any way.

I have not. Several people have. You have not seemed to care about their concerns. I am not going to play that game with you.

 

[Deathromancer]

I think they way it's layed the OP is right that if you don't claim your reward within the month you lose it permanently. I agree with OP that these should never expire while you are a VIP. If you login 4 months from now and claim 4 rewards, what is the problem?

I agree should be retroactive, and not need to talk to someone to claim, if I'm paying I should get it without jumping thru hoops.

 

[mbartol]

Perhaps if on a given month, you have the option to select from any of the previous months that were unclaimed. This way, a player that missed a month can choose which reward is left unclaimed.

It’s not perfect, but it would solve the issue where one missed month prevents you from claiming the mount on month 12 (referring to purchasing a 1 year sub). You still fewer than 12 prizes, but you choose which one you don’t claim.

 

[Ahpuch]

Perhaps if on a given month, you have the option to select from any of the previous months that were unclaimed. This way, a player that missed a month can choose which reward is left unclaimed.

It’s not perfect, but it would solve the issue where one missed month prevents you from claiming the mount on month 12 (referring to purchasing a 1 year sub). You still fewer than 12 prizes, but you choose which one you don’t claim.

That is a good idea. However, I think that if SSG was looking for good ideas, we wouldn't be here still discussing this program.

 

[mbartol]

That is a good idea. However, I think that if SSG was looking for good ideas, we wouldn't be here still discussing this program.

Painfully true. Many good ideas have been suggested since Tolero asked the community about it 2 years ago.

 

[Dude]

I'm sure we would all be thrilled if they decided to change the monthly 500pts so that you do not get them anymore unless you log in.

That's actually how EQ2 works. Given that it's owned by the same company, might not want to give any ideas.