Vistani adding Kukris proposed by Torc

[saekee]

So is this the end of daggers for rogues at endgame? Core 12 of Vistani becomes redundant with Knife Spec IF you are using Kukris. This would save 2 AP for assassins. That seems like a small amount, but we all know how tightly we are squeezed with AP.

Daggers in heroics and epics enjoy still a great selection of named items and expanded threat/crit multipliers.

For those who have been on the moon, here is the relevant thread: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/u61-enhancement-tree-class-tweaks.2903/ Maybe the devs will change One with Blades to imitate Knife Spec, a considerable buff for pure Vistani builds. This is all still in the proposal stage.



I hope this happens as I have a lot of old Kukris lying around from Greensteel days. There could be some fun build options for multiclasses here, strong thuggish kukri builds that go all Vistani and maybe 18 rogue and grabbing two other classes.

 

[Marshal_Lannes]

I've wanted to use Labrythine Edge for almost a year now. I do believe this will finally give me some viable options.

 

[Sophie The Cat Burglar]

Wait, wait, wait. Kukris are now better than daggers? I lose two points using daggers? Is that right?

 

[rabidfox]

This is all still in the proposal stage.

It's not in some proposal stage, it's going live next week from the patch notes Cord showed off Friday's stream.

 

[Dalsheel]

Personally, I want Vistani tree REMOVED.
Everyone has Haste Boost now and all the other light weapons are practically extinct.
Remove this tree, or, at the very least, change Haste boost to Tier4 AND include Shortsword and Rapier in there.
There's no reason Barbarians/Paladins/Monks having access to haste boost. All it does is make every toon the same.

 

[saekee]

Personally, I want Vistani tree REMOVED.
Everyone has Haste Boost now and all the other light weapons are practically extinct.
Remove this tree, or, at the very least, change Haste boost to Tier4 AND include Shortsword and Rapier in there.
There's no reason Barbarians/Paladins/Monks having access to haste boost. All it does is make every toon the same.

universal trees have resulted in a lot generic mixing and leveling, to your point. On the flip side they have offered capstones which multiclasses were missing out on which made build diversity more exciting.

I am not a weapon history expert but we had the two weapon short sword gladiator type—cannot recall the name right now—and the Romans used the gladius or whatever with a tower shield for their harmony.

In fantasy genres we get all sorts of weird mixes…

 

[saekee]

Wait, wait, wait. Kukris are now better than daggers? I lose two points using daggers? Is that right?

well, kind of. If you do the full vistani tree when you hit 20. Enhancement point expenditures are all over the place before then but I suppose someone using core 12 of Vistani together with tier 5 assasin in mid teens could already beneft with kukris over daggers.

The big difference is that for 2 AP, named daggers are better than kukris. Many have nice expanded threats and buffs. I think the fact that endgame builders are using Dinocrafting even over the raid daggers means that we can swap then to kukris to save those 2 AP.

If you look at Tronko’s awesome post https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/reaper-endgame-centered-assassin.416/
you see he dumps the 2 AP in tier 5 assassin that would give an extra 10 damage on marked targets (‘Deadly Strikes’). So with kukris he would get an extra 10 damage (roughly) on attacks. That is significant for minmaxers

 

[Sophie The Cat Burglar]

Oh. Oh. I see. (I don't.) That makes perfect sense. (Now I have a headache.) Shadar Kai. (Tender parts of my body hurt thinking about that.) Well, I suppose it does not matter. (I have no clue what is going on and have therefore gone full apathy mode.)

Thank you for explaining, Saekee San!

 

[saekee]

Oh. Oh. I see. (I don't.) That makes perfect sense. (Now I have a headache.) Shadar Kai. (Tender parts of my body hurt thinking about that.) Well, I suppose it does not matter. (I have no clue what is going on and have therefore gone full apathy mode.)

Thank you for explaining, Saekee San!

it is the difference between Knife Specialization (tier 5 in assassin: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with Daggers and Kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range. If you have Improved Critical: Piercing, this bonus to Threat Range is doubled.) and One with Blades from the Vistani core ( You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range and +1 to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and throwing daggers.) Knife Spec makes daggers 15-20/3 despite the description, whereas Vistani makes them 16-20/3 (or even just 17-20, I forget) with improved crit.
Since vistani is not as good as assassin here, people take both enhancements.

With Kukris, you will get the 15-20 anyway! See, so they become redundant, and you can skip spending the 2 AP on Knife Spec in assassin.

 

[Sophie The Cat Burglar]

*adopts a British accent* Yes. Of course. Could you draw a diagram with stick figures?

So daggers do now suck?

Stuff like this is the reason I keep sending DDO to the dog house and sleeping with the game next door.

 

[saekee]

*adopts a British accent* Yes. Of course. Could you draw a diagram with stick figures?

So daggers do now suck?

Stuff like this is the reason I keep sending DDO to the dog house and sleeping with the game next door.

no daggers are still better most of the time mainly due to named daggers being very good whereas kukris are less interesting.
Since in the case of crafting, all things become standardized—for end game builds they are using dino crafting from Isle of Dread. Hence they might be better off crafting kukris and saving 2 AP off of Knife Spec and putting it elsewhere.

It is a very minor niche thing. I like it because Vistani builds will now be better with Kukris unless they modify one with blade to be like Knife Spec

 

[Sophie The Cat Burglar]

Saekee San, I am very concerned about your current infatuation with kukris. Just look at them. A kukris looks like a runt machete. No. It looks like a floppy pipsqueak machete. The weapon is so lame and bad it droops. It is a floppy, droopy, pipsqueak machete. How are you even supposed to stab someone with the thing? Oh no! Someone stabbed me with a floppy, droopy, pipsqueak machete and...nothing happened...because they suck. Kukris are dumb. Midnight Greetings. More like Midnight Mister Droopy Puny Machete. Do you look kukris at a guy if you are mad at him? No. You look daggers at him. Does a woman wear kukris heels? No. She wears stiletto heels. Do armored knights and men-at-arms use Rondel Kukris. No. They use Rondel Daggers. Who the heck uses kukris? People who live in jungles and the British. The people who live in jungles can use their puny midget lame droopy machetes as...I don't know...machetes. I guess. The British just use them because they are weird. Look! We found this lame puny droopy sucky machete thing. Let's carry it around because it looks exotic. Whatever. Do the British stick kukris on the ends of their rifles? No, because that would be STUPID. They use a bayonet for that. Why do they use bayonets? The use bayonets because bayonets are daggers and daggers actually work. All kukris should be melted down and made into something useful, like toilet gaskets or something like that.

 

[Tilomere]

VKF centering Kukris opens up 18/1/1 p2w sacred fist shadar-kai with drifting lotus, so I say go for it.

it also gives SF paladins a second melee tree with raw damage/crit/multiplier synergy to go with lotus/chains.

Plus Labarynthine is good enough to use for a few more years as an all purpose weapon, and better than any dagger, and due to having keen can be used to save 2 feats to make a more hybrid pali.

 

[misterski]

Saekee San, I am very concerned about your current infatuation with kukris. Just look at them. A kukris looks like a runt machete. No. It looks like a floppy pipsqueak machete. The weapon is so lame and bad it droops. It is a floppy, droopy, pipsqueak machete. How are you even supposed to stab someone with the thing? Oh no! Someone stabbed me with a floppy, droopy, pipsqueak machete and...nothing happened...because they suck. Kukris are dumb. Midnight Greetings. More like Midnight Mister Droopy Puny Machete. Do you look kukris at a guy if you are mad at him? No. You look daggers at him. Does a woman wear kukris heels? No. She wears stiletto heels. Do armored knights and men-at-arms use Rondel Kukris. No. They use Rondel Daggers. Who the heck uses kukris? People who live in jungles and the British. The people who live in jungles can use their puny midget lame droopy machetes as...I don't know...machetes. I guess. The British just use them because they are weird. Look! We found this lame puny droopy sucky machete thing. Let's carry it around because it looks exotic. Whatever. Do the British stick kukris on the ends of their rifles? No, because that would be STUPID. They use a bayonet for that. Why do they use bayonets? The use bayonets because bayonets are daggers and daggers actually work. All kukris should be melted down and made into something useful, like toilet gaskets or something like that.

It's a slashing weapon, not piercing. No stabbing involved. If you're going to mock something you should at least get the basic information right first.

 

[PraetorPlato]

VKF centering Kukris opens up 18/1/1 p2w sacred fist shadar-kai with drifting lotus, so I say go for it.

it also gives SF paladins a second melee tree with raw damage/crit/multiplier synergy to go with lotus/chains.

Plus Labarynthine is good enough to use for a few more years as an all purpose weapon, and better than any dagger, and due to having keen can be used to save 2 feats to make a more hybrid pali.

This feels unlikely for DPS builds: skipping overwhelming crit is a ~5-10% flat damage loss (easily worth two feats), and Labrynthine is worse than Dino.

 

[Sophie The Cat Burglar]

It's a slashing weapon, not piercing. No stabbing involved. If you're going to mock something you should at least get the basic information right first.

Ohhhhh, really? Well, thanks for clarifying that, Poindexter. I'll make sure to share that with the plumber, next time he's over to install a new commode.

 

[kriegzilla]

These guys https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishnu_Shrestha are why you should consider using kukris. It is the the eponymous weapon of the Ghurkas, a group of fierce Nepalese bad a$$es. Since at one point the British empire spanned most of the globe, perhaps, since the British hired these guys, it should give you pause for thought.

That said, Sophie, I appreciate the comedy in your response.

 

[VinoeWhines]

Ya you beat me to it, Ghurkas I will second were B.A.'s they were known to air drop off of planes at low altitudes without chutes, being able to absorb the impact by rolling off the momentum, you kind of see people doing that now in certain Parkour(Free Running) stunts.
One Ghurka was worth three British foot soldiers in battle, there was even a Legendary Ghurka that took out a bunch of Vietcong enemies by himself.
The Kukri s a very valuable blade, and is prized in the Jungles as a slashing weapon to cut through the dense Jungles, it is said that the small slit at the end of the blade by the handle was to allow the blood to drop off so it wouldn't drip on to the handle to cause the weapon to slip out of the hand while swinging through enemy limbs severing through them.

Though many say the Kukri was also used earlier times in the Punjab Region with the famed Warrior Sekhs, who many believe a majority of the Martial Arts had it's footing.