Weapon-based Stealth

[Misadventure]

Got to ask whats the point when almost all mobs have true seeing on epic and legendary got legendary ward or something.

Stealth can only be used on heroic. So once you go beyond 20 your whole build becomes pointless.

There's a reason why triple stealth builds are so obsolete.

 

[dunklezhan]

Epic mobs get their true seeing so they can bypass blur, displacement and invisibility.

Invisibility is largely of use for those characters that haven't built for stealth, and are trying for a temporary boost.

True seeing doesn't directly boost spot, search or anything like that, the most it does for either of those is allow the seeing of secret doors up to DC30 which stops being a thing at about L15+ anyway, but it's not a boost to actual spot or search skills.

Essentially: the mobs get to bypass buffs, not skills. So this all very much depends on what you mean by 'stealth'. To me that's about the build - skills & gear.

For instance, my Rogue - 3rd life, few tomes, definitely only average geared - sneaks about in epics all the time so as to land assassinates and such, but she's not built for "stealth" beyond maxing out the relevant skills, I have not pumped dex beyond what's needed for TWF and if my gear has move silently and hide on it then that's entirely accidental rather than planned (and I'm pretty sure I'm not wearing any at the moment. There have been points whilst levelling where she's had that kind of gear because it also came with locks or disable or something on it.

And about the only time I find mobs having True Seeing to be an issue for sneaking about is when I've made a horrible mess of an encounter and need to get out of dodge - once mobs are locked on to you in DDO they pretty much are going to miraculously find you unless you can first break line of sight, then pop invisibility and then restealth (in that order) before they see you again.

Mobs with true seeing won't be fooled by the popping of invis but that is a theoretically optional step anyway if you can get far enough away from the mobs and properly break line of sight before restealthing. I've learned that if I get spotted, I need to UNstealth before I leg it, and then the REstealth will work more reliably once I have got a couple of corners between me and the mobs chasing me.

The bane of stealth is
- tremorsense - includes various mobs and some reapers
- arbitrary kill-all-mobs-before-the-door-unlocks choke points

And that second one certainly makes solo stealth play more or less non-viable, for me.

I don't know why the devs wanted rid of that playstyle, but they've successfully made it completley unnattractive especially once they stopped mobs being single-pullable via noise (e.g. a thrown dagger near to one of the mobs would bring that mobs and only that mob to investigate, that's not been the case for about a decade now, but it was BETTER I say. BETTER), so golf clap, I guess.

In a group (which is the only place I'd recommend playing a Rogue these days due to all the arbitrary magical chokepoints), if I get seen whilst scouting forward my response doesn't tend to be 'evade and hide' anyway, it tends to be 'leg it at full speed towards someone wearing armour (or the barbarian), pop diplomacy and then run in circles round them until their hate hoovers up the pack of mobs chasing me'.

By then assassinate's usually off cooldown so it's a quick stealth-and-murder job to help finish off the pack. Sometimes the rogue even survives....

Anyway. TL; DR - in what way does True Seeing get in the way of Stealth?

 

[DYWYPI]

No, Stealth tactics can be used in Epic, it's basically no different than Heroic settings. Cordovan, I think you are confusing: "True Seeing" with 'Tremor sense', and 'All-seeing'. It's easy enough to kill a beholder without it seeing you...

Furthermore, (due to current illogical "(mis)behaviour" of the some of the monsters) it's likely within the quest; illogical "chain-reaction aggravation" can already be in effect, but unnoticeable until coming out of Sneak. Thus, several monsters [Kobolds] can already be (telepathically aware) purely because you had passed by them previously – even if they'd never been "alerted" to your presence, think scent trail and bloodhounds. ;-)

[...] Try being an injured assassin in a port city and you'll know what I mean. Especially a female one. I had to kill a few people before those dockland scum would leave me alone.

Like was mentioned above; Sneak ability (Hide and Move Silently), is not affected by 'True Seeing', and you can still sneak up on Beholders using Sneak. Remember the stealthy still can't bypass 'Tremor Sense' anyway...

The Oozes (Ochre Jelly) in 'Garl's Tomb' and 'The Troglodytes' Get' are some of the best "trackers" in the game! It's amazing how far they will faithfully travel to reach you. The early ones will go around corridors, climb up stairs continue following on, out of the room, along the passages... their range is crazy. All that time they are "locked on" to your position. They'll likely travel well over a few hundred metres in the hopes of digesting you.

Initial mob density, placement, and how they communicate and transfer their built-up aggravation state level onto their nearby allies. Resulting in chain reaction tends to be the main issue in most cases. ...

In the screenshot above are the 'Durk's Got a Secret' Oozes and they are like relentless bloodhounds (due to Tremor sense).​

Sneaking past mobs to avoid combat and Stealth play are two totally different concepts; any fool can avoid being detected by mobs if they are only travelling from point: A to B to avoid combat. Whereas proper Stealth play takes time and patience.

These are just a few threads regarding stealth:

Abhorrent response from the developers​

Question for the Devs: Why isn't Stealth Supported in Reaper?​

Update on Progress of Falconry Bugs​

It took several years and not until [U45.2], before there was any further DDO Developer response to any Assassin enthusiast, with regards to honest questions about using; Sneak or Stealth, etc. It happened to be me that got the first response (we're talking about 3 years of total silence from SSG up until that post). Refer to: [Post #90].

The Sneak [button] now (since U40.2) seems to be mostly just cosmetic with regards to Assassinate. Because you can stroll up to your amoeboid Ooze opponent (that has no vitals and already can sense you). Aggravate it; get it swinging wildly at you; begin using /dance to annoy it more... Tell it a joke about /death count, ask it "Do you come here often?" ...

Then simply Click Sneak, it will likely miss you, and then hit Assassinate resulting in; a pretty much dead Ooze!

We all want progress, but if you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.

 

[vryxnr]

The thing with those quests, is the giant's don't detect by spot/listen. They detect purely by proximity. I tested with silly high stealth scores. I was able to literally bump into the backsides of the other enemies without being detected, but those giants, once I got within their melee range, instant detection. The only way to avoid detection is to keep your distance and avoid line of sight (rush behind boxes until they pass, etc). Sadly, luring the other enemies is dangerous as they will also alert the giants if they run near one.

Also, I very very very much miss old stealth tactics. I miss being able to throw something at a wall to make a noise to distract. It was so good and one of the strengths that brought me into the game.

 

[saekee]

I am using still full stealth tactics and have seen some techniques come and some go.

True seeing has no effect on stealthplay. It is tremor sense that gets you, and bloated red-named end fight kills.

Techniques in short:
1) max HS/MS and pump up dex. Use camouflage cloak clickies out of Saltmarsh; it stacks, and if you can fit in Nimble Skills bonus items that is great.
2) if not dex based then take shadowform in SD—I don’t due to AP.
3) buff epic strikes in SD so you get long range melee. But don’t use the epic strike—use From the Shadows so it makes it active for 10sec and combine it with other attacks like long range assassinate. You could make a case to buff up Meld instead so you have dodge defenses.
4) Use Adrenaline on strikes that do not break stealth. Those are Vistani rapid slash and Fast & Furious in Fury. So they are like second assassinates—do From the Shadows—>assasinate—>adrenaline/fury hit—>rapid slash on the helpless mob if still alive—>scamper away. If dealing with packs of mobs use From the Shadows AFTER you assassinate to get away. Adrenaline with knockdown is the most important epic strike for assassins as it brings death to any mobs you isolate. Learn to pity them—they go helpless and they are done for with all the sneak damage and boosts.
5) In some cases bluff pulll—craft some swap piece of gear like gloves with bluff of insightful bluff and slot Charisma/insightful Charisma in augments. Noisemakers and flaming spheres (cast oit of sight) can be used to herd groups out of the way too and save you needing to clean the knives.
6) If soloing then and dealing with areas in which you will be sneak kiting (like in No Refunds or Blown Deadline), scroll cast Mass Invisibilty and Shadowalk. They have a long duration. These spells will not break when you assassinate or do the above attacks. Yes many mobs have true seeing but not all; shadowwalk makes you displaced but better is that it increases your speed so you really cruise—you become a phase spider. On the old forums I called this ‘Weaving in the Fade” if you want to do research. If weaving in the fade, switch gear around to max assassinate. There is a lot of easy-to-get gear that can do this or craft a pair of gloves (Leg Necklace of Venom and Red Raptor Feather will give you quality and insighftul, both easy to grab).
7) bluff pull reapers and use adrenline hits on them. That will take them down. If you time the cooldown on adrenaline you can get a couple hits in one after the other. You can sneak past the upper tier reapers and that is a good idea—even despair and vengeance ones. I usually pull those and drop them in case I get sloppy.

Being an assassin is not like the Thuggy stomp-up-and-hit, Flying Nun caster or Jumpy Shooter who are all so proud of their successes. Like Batman you are vulnerable and need your skills and gadgets. The devs are your greatest enemy as they tirelessly want to get rid of stealth yet throw us a bone sometimes.

There are hordes of chests in game accessible to sneaky toons too that you can ransack, so take advantage of all aspects of the toon’s abilities.


Report back here to me of your deathdealings.

 

[Chai]

They drop support for stealth in the game, then years later they make a stealth themed quest.

The message was they won't support stealth in reaper, but most of the stuff that made it difficult in reaper also hosed it in below reaper settings.

 

[saekee]

just watched the video here and there. Cordo's build is clearly not a stealth build unless he has something up his sleeve. That quest is not a true stealth quest in that the toons are exaggerated in their poor vision. They remind me of the werewolves in Quid Pro Quo.

It is an easy quest for a stealth toon to farm the air elemental chest to ransack, or move quickly to the endfight.

 

[Archest]

Stealth helps with diversion and sneak attack, mark, opening shot , hunts end, sniper shot

 

[DYWYPI]

I haven't played that quest, however, I got the impression it was a lacklustre 'pseudo-stealth mechanic' that the giants were mainly using. For example, they were short-sighted and it was a mostly proximity to the model (like a shrouding aura of detection just covering the model). Rather than them using authentic Spot and Listen check ranges, and mechanics.

[...] That quest is not a true stealth quest in that the toons are exaggerated in their poor vision. They remind me of the werewolves in Quid Pro Quo. ...

Yes, great minds, that's what popped into my head. The Content Developers just took some cheap shortcuts with the Giants. For the benefit of people with no stealth play skill, and gave the illusion some Sneak skill investment was involved.