U60 Preview of Preview 2 Lammania XP Changes

[DBZ]

You want to force this in epics fine but heroics no thanks

Less grind not more grind more build options not less

 

[KylerrTheMajty]

I shrug because after 30+ pages (mostly) saying "this seems like the wrong approach for your goals" they come back with the same approach, new goals and convoluted grid of numbers that make XP less clear. The only thing constant between preview 1 and 2 is the approach (the disliked approach) so ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

we can see now its not about lag its just exp nerf....

they lowering requirement for agress/onslu/conquest so ppl will do aggression fast then zerg ,nothing will change only we get less exp...

 

[Arkat]

Perhaps we're looking at these changes through the wrong set of "lenses," if you will.

Maybe we should be looking at these changes from the perspective of a for-profit business?

Specifically, how will these changes drive revenue?

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Here's what is hopefully a less confusing table for xp on reaper since the definition of aggression and onslaught are changing.

	Current live xp bonus (FT+bravery+kills)	New xp bonus (Delving+kills)
0-25% of mobs killed	195%	150%
25-50% of mobs killed	195%	175%
50-65% of mobs killed	205%	200%
65%-75% of mobs killed	210%	200%
75-80% of mobs killed	210%	250%
80%+ of mobs killed	220%	250%

 

[Dunspartacus]

Somewhat unrelated but I still kinda wish elite gave the same leveling exp as reaper. I don't love that the optional challenge mode for prestige sorta became the optimal leveling mode, especially if it looks like leveling is going to be more slow and grindy next patch.

 

[Nickodeamous]

Hi SSG Devs

I agree that this is a bit of a shrug tbh, but I think what would help is this (I know this is a longshot):

1. Instead of a % of mobs that we need to hit for each tier, can you actually provide the number of mobs per quest that are needed to kill per tier?
2. Can you ensure that all quests have all tiers available?

In theory, you should not have to do any optionals to break even on xp/min as it stands right now. (I don't know that this is the case, and its hard to tell). I don't know if this is the goal though as we have been told reducing Lag is the goal. (or slowing people down). who knows!

All of this is just confusing...

 

[Zaszgul]

Perhaps we're looking at these changes through the wrong "pair of glasses," if you will.

Maybe we should be looking at these changes from the perspective of a for-profit business?

Specifically, how will these changes drive revenue?

All I know for sure is XP is the most valued resource - by far - by a majority of players. If they piss off too many people with this change, it'll be the most expensive mistake they'll ever make.

 

[rabidfox]

Here's what is hopefully a less confusing table for xp on reaper since the definition of aggression and onslaught are changing.

	Current live xp bonus (FT+bravery+kills)	New xp bonus (Delving+kills)
0-25% of mobs killed	195%	150%
25-50% of mobs killed	195%	175%
50-65% of mobs killed	205%	200%
65%-75% of mobs killed	210%	200%
75-80% of mobs killed	210%	250%
80%+ of mobs killed	220%	250%

Thanks for the chart. So basically it's still big old nerf to XP for doing the same thing and a XP/min loss. One could go around getting more kills for the greater XP per quest but would then waste XP pots making it way more expensive per quest. So still bad for me.

 

[Nickodeamous]

Here's what is hopefully a less confusing table for xp on reaper since the definition of aggression and onslaught are changing.

	Current live xp bonus (FT+bravery+kills)	New xp bonus (Delving+kills)
0-25% of mobs killed	195%	150%
25-50% of mobs killed	195%	175%
50-65% of mobs killed	205%	200%
65%-75% of mobs killed	210%	200%
75-80% of mobs killed	210%	250%
80%+ of mobs killed	220%	250%

so the sweet spot in this chart is between 75-80% kills where you maximize XP. Id still think that SSG needs to ensure all tiers are available in all quests, or this isnt real.

 

[Haramel]

An updated proposal from feedback and additional leg work on a hot topic!

This is an early preview of what preview 2 might look like (this doesn't reflect what is in preview 1)

To recap our goal here is to make monsters a bit more worth while from an XP perspective using the conquest bonus. We also wanna clean up some of the confusion in first time bonuses (only one type plz). We got feedback on a mess of issues but one thing that came across is conquest is busted in many places and even when it's not busted, it's often not considered worth while because you need to go off critical path, and there are fears the XP per minute will slow significantly....

So we are changing our approach, and are using the lower conquest threshold of Aggressor as more the balance point with some XP buff-age for the higher conquest tiers.

Have a look. New stuff starts at bullet point 3. There are some important additional notes on reaper here btw.

Changes:

1. Bravery Bonus is being renamed Delving Bonus. Still. It's also getting a new tier for reaper so it will now work as thus...

Hard 50% Bonus

Elite 100% Bonus

Reaper 150% Bonus

Uses the same logic as bravery bonus did before meaning if you play on hard then elite you'll only get a 50% bonus for reaper, or if you JUST played on hard and then reaper the bonus would be 100%. Playing reaper from the get go would be 150%.

2. the "First Time Bonuses" per difficulty are being removed (Still. We are boosting in other places though to make up for it)

3. Conquest, Aggressor and Onslaught Bonuses are be greatly boosted, and give different values based on difficulty.

NEW CONQUEST BONUS VALUES

	Normal	Hard	Elite	Reaper	Old Requirement	New Requirement
Conquest	50	75	100	100	kill 80% of mobs in quest	kill 75% of the mobs in quest
Onslaught	35	45	50	50	kill 65% of the mobs in quest	kill 50% of mobs in quest
Aggression	25	25	25	25	kill 50% of the mobs in quest	kill 25% of mobs in quest

Additional....

A> The thresholds to reach a bonus are being lowered. Getting Aggression is twice as easy as it was before.​

​

B> Dungeons with extremely large monster counts will get addressed - There may be 400 mobs in TOEE (guessing) will be adjusted so aggression/onslaught happen for running critical path, and conquest won't require that much extra exploring. Broken quests (haverdasher/vault dragon fight) in heroic will get fix. The previous preview 1 thread gave us a pretty good idea where problem quests were.​

​

C> We are looking into communicating how many monsters you need to get these bonuses in the quest panel. We THINK we can get this working.​

4. Reaper XP

So as we've been looking at this we saw a few things we want to tweaking about reaper. In general reaper XP will just go up due to the conquest/Aggressor increases because those apply, but most of what we want to address is feedback in the quest panel about reaper XP is really lacking.

Note: First time bonuses and bravery bonus never applied to reaper XP, this was terribly unclear, which we intend to correct.

A> Reaper XP will now display before getting your 10 kills , and let you know you don't get reaper xp till you kill 10 mobs​

​

B> The Reaper XP 200% first time XP bonus will now display in the quest panel when it applies, and it will state that this bonus is used instead of delving​

​

C> We are looking at making the Reaper XP 200% bonus apply separately for heroic and epic/legendary each - so you can play something on reaper on heroic that has a legendary mode without screwing yourself out of the 30+ level bonus later.​

BEFORE & AFTER CHARTS. Example of Total XP % Quest Panel Bonuses.

NORMAL	Old conquest	New conquest	HARD	Old conquest	New conquest	ELITE	Old conquest	New conquest	REAPER	Old conquest	New conquest
conquest	25	50		25	75		25	100		25	100
1st time	20	0		20	0		45	0		95	0
Bravery	0	0		50	50		100	100		100	150
Ransack	15	15		15	15		15	15		15	15
Tome of Learning	50	50		50	50		50	50		50	50
Tamper	10	10		10	10		10	10		10	10
Observance	8	8		8	8		8	8		8	8
Total	128	133		178	208		253	283		303	333

Reaper XP note - because conquest applies to reaper xp you'll see about a 10-15% increase of total reaper xp for those who get conquest in a reaper dungeon when playing it the first time. The replay value a bit higher. We may increase xp ransack on reaper if spamming quests becomes common, the but delta is still a 2 to 1 or great ratio in favor of new quests so we don't think that'll be to much of a problem.

Note on daily bonus. Someone asked if this was changing...it's not changing at all! (probably should of been in this example chart. Shrug.

-T

Thanks for fast return and show another proposal buyt you dont understand what the community said in +30 pages : look that we dont want (or most of us players) that the "First Time Bonuses" per difficulty are being removed and transferred to another place; that we players dont want get penalized because of playstyles (like zerg). There are dozens of suggestions already given on how to make optional and achievements within quests more attractive and rewarding; others dozens about pace mobs in quest.

 

[Arkat]

One could go around getting more kills for the greater XP per quest but would then waste XP pots making it way more expensive per quest. So still bad for me.

Thus driving XP Pot (among other things) sales in the DDO Store.

 

[Nimvind]

I feel like putting emphasis on killing mobs even the one that never seen the players and also making the bonuses higher in higher difficulty will make newer players feel bad about not doing higher difficulties, and some new f2p players may need to vip up or make opener friends to utilize this. Not to mention disabled players who cant reasonably function in higher difficulties.

I also feel like this is a step away from expanding the amount of quests we run and promotes farming a smaller list of quests.

I also wonder how does the tomes of learning work with all this.

I'm assuming the intent is to make us go in the speed that was prior to u59, a more comfortable zerg, and to clear aggro as we go along; I just dont think attacking the xp will help. It will hurt players who never had these behaviors, have less time in a week to play the game they love and also more casual and or disabled players who also love this game and community. I'm just some guy, I dont know everything this is just how I feel about all this.

I love this game, the community and I'm quite fond of SSG, I just hope we can all find a better middle ground to solve all issues.

I really was hoping for maybe just a new xp bonus to reward clearing activated mobs and reduce their need to do big pathing would be nice. But that seems to not be the only concern here. I will keep asking the community on my streams to add their voices here respectfully so we can all add to the discussion and maybe find something that we all can abide by.

 

[Jergyl]

I doubt any of this will greatly impact how I complete quests.
I play solo with Cleric or FvS hirelings and or Expansion Permanent Hirelings, I skip most optionals, rarely get Conquest and occasionally take my time exploring. I prefer to a quest once and then move on till I can't get XP anymore. I run a Medium Experience Elixir most of the time (which I purchase with points that I earn or $$$) and a Greater Tome of Learning (Heroic and Epic). I just started dipping my toe into Reaper Mode which has been quite fun (doing R1 instead of Elite).
I would need to do a 1-30 to see exactly how it changes my leveling but I just can't see it changing much

 

[Griglok (Karatemack)]

Uses the same logic as bravery bonus did before meaning if you play on hard then elite you'll only get a 50% bonus for reaper, or if you JUST played on hard and then reaper the bonus would be 100%. Playing reaper from the get go would be 150%.

B> The Reaper XP 200% first time XP bonus will now display in the quest panel when it applies, and it will state that this bonus is used instead of delving​

Torc,

First you wrote: "Uses the same logic as bravery bonus did before meaning if you play on hard then elite you'll only get a 50% bonus for reaper, or if you JUST played on hard and then reaper the bonus would be 100%. Playing reaper from the get go would be 150%."

Then you wrote: "The Reaper XP 200% first time XP bonus will now display in the quest panel when it applies, and it will state that this bonus is used instead of delving."

I might be failing reading comprehension checks, but it seems like these contradict. Can you please clarify that we receive 200% first time reaper and do not receive bravery (IE: delving) bonus? Or do we receive 50% delving + 200% first time reaper?

Or better yet, just clarify what happens if I run level 32 quests at cap on elite to help guildies farm gear and then try to run it R10 for the RXP. Will I lose all the bonus XP or will it be 200%?

Thank you for pushing this update out quickly and for clarifying.

EDIT: I think the devling bonus applies to quest XP and the 200% bonus is only for RXP, since Torc clarified bravery didn't apply to RXP. If this is correct, then disregard my question as these statements don't contradict.

 

[Shagarot]

Those values definitely looks better, but it still wouldn't prevent people from grabbing many groups of mobs, kiting them and then killing all at once. Maybe if getting red alert on quest was giving an extra exp penalty, be it either flat 50% or just stacking 10% penalty per red alert achieved? Although that can also hurt people playing normally from time to time because reapers have a tendency to just activate every mob group on their path. I still remember when I was soloing "Wild Thing" and a single reaper got confused trying to reach me, phased through a tree-wall and went on his marry way activating every single group of mobs inside dungeon creating red alert on it's own.

 

[Fhrek]

Perhaps we're looking at these changes through the wrong "pair of glasses," if you will.

Maybe we should be looking at these changes from the perspective of a for-profit business?

Specifically, how will these changes drive revenue?

Simple... nerfing players Exp/min will increase the grind, burning out more people and driving more way from the game. Ghost town going even ghostier... Drive revenue sky diving... even from a business point of view, nerf Exp/min is a BAD choice.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Thus driving XP Pot (among other things) sales in the DDO Store.

If this is their motivation then its misguided.

XP pots are based on time played, not xp/minute or player goals. I don't magically have an extra hour per day to play that would allow me to use xp pots faster to make up for potential lost xp. If my play time is 18 hours a week I'm only capable of using 3 xp pots per week. How much xp I get from those 18 hours makes absolutely no difference to SSG's revenue.

 

[rabidfox]

so the sweet spot in this chart is between 75-80% kills where you maximize XP. Id still think that SSG needs to ensure all tiers are available in all quests, or this isnt real.

That sweet spot to me really comes down to time spent killing for XP earned vs pots ticking down. Will the value lost on XP pot timer be worth the time to spent killing? In parties, the new tactic would likely be one person zergs extra fast to the end while everyone else splits agroing the whole quest to get those kills; so we'll likely stress the servers more to get that XP (hahaha).

 

[calouscaine]

There's a quest in the cogs, north west corner (can't remember it's name), but conquest can be achieved with 36 kills currently, ran on elite heroic.
I assume this formula will take into account the number in the dungeon and then apply the appropriate bonus - minus the ones which have large numbers and may be adjusted later? (i.e. toee)
So, if I get this right, it's going to blanket, and give bonus percentage on number killed from number of total in dungeon.
There's going to be a first time reaper bonus, but not a first time quest run through bonus (base xp), if I am reading this right, yes?
And there's still going to be a daily bonus.
Still crunching in my head. . .just want to make sure I got this first bit correct.

 

[Putti]

Torc,

First you wrote: "Uses the same logic as bravery bonus did before meaning if you play on hard then elite you'll only get a 50% bonus for reaper, or if you JUST played on hard and then reaper the bonus would be 100%. Playing reaper from the get go would be 150%."

Then you wrote: "The Reaper XP 200% first time XP bonus will now display in the quest panel when it applies, and it will state that this bonus is used instead of delving."

Good point. Where is the 200% even coming from? I thought the First Time bonus was being removed, but it's then mentioned as applying to reaper.

Also if it's going to start applying to Reaper XP then no one will ever want to run a quest (to help a guildy or whatever) on elite, before they've run it on Reaper as you'd lose out on a huge bonus to Reaper XP.
With regular XP it didn't really matter as you'd get some of the bonus and then be able to get the rest later. You can't do that with Reaper XP as it's only available on Reaper, but the bonus still gets used up on lower difficulties.
With Bravery Bonus applying to Reaper XP you'd permanently (for that life) lose 100% potential XP from doing elite before Reaper.