U60 Preview of Preview 2 Lammania XP Changes

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Dandonk

This is not the title you're looking for
Here's what is hopefully a less confusing table for xp on reaper since the definition of aggression and onslaught are changing.

So, a nerf until 75% of mobs killed. Nasty.

OK, fair enough, the nerf is not huge at 50%+ killed, but still. Can we please just stop beating the players until morale improves, and use some real carrot instead?
 
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alcolitoz

Member
To recap our goal here is to make monsters a bit more worth while from an XP perspective using the conquest bonus
Devs need to be honest and really explain their reasoning. Devs want us to kill more monsters because mob pathing are stressing servers? Mobs are "pathing" due to hyperzerging? This problem can be fixed with DA penalties, especially if you reduce player speed starting from green alert.

I really dont get why devs sudenly want us to kill more mobs. People that dont zerg dont cause the problem. Dont punish those players.
 

Drunken.dx

Well-known member
Somewhat unrelated but I still kinda wish elite gave the same leveling exp as reaper. I don't love that the optional challenge mode for prestige sorta became the optimal leveling mode, especially if it looks like leveling is going to be more slow and grindy next patch.
I'm mad at SSG that "optional" reaper mode became mandatory for xp/min.

I promise if SSG makes elite and reaper bonus same I'll sold out and fully support this change.

Heck I'll even bite and buy underdark pack (mid, top one is too expensive for what it gives)
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Good change as well. However for C, didn't the first time reaper already apply separately between heroic and epic/legendary? I certainly have noticed getting double RXP on first time epics/legendary even if I ran the heroic version on reaper on the same character.
Yeah, it's seperate on live. We also get a 1st time bonus on live currently to RXP. Some of things being said just don't make sense.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
Right now if I run a quest on reaper on live, I get a big 1st time bonus XP to my RXP and on future runs it goes down (as far as I'm aware it's the 95% reaper first time bonus applying). So I'm not certain what you're claiming here.
^^^
This.
Seems lead game developers know about own game lesser than usual average player or... have another motivation to say what he says. Of course, english mot my native language, i hope i just misunderstood something...
 

Mike K

New member
If this mess goes live it is a clear signal that SSG is ready and willing to sacrifice gameplay quality in order to try to drive profits.

I believe all of the DA talk was a red herring. "Look at those mean old zergers, forcing us to nerf your xp". This is misdirection at its finest. 3 devs commented 3 different agendas for these changes and the only thing that rings true through it all is "spend more money just to break even".

For years we were told "da is there to prevent lag".
We get these "massive lag fixes" and they have nothing at all to do with da or its underlying cause.
Next thing you know a very prominent streamer posts a video of the most asinine behavior I have ever seen in this game.
Next we are told all the lag is from this new "hyperzerging" behavior.

DUDE, NO ONE WHO HAS EVER CARED ABOUT XP/MIN HAS EVER ENGAGED IN THAT KIND OF TOMFOOLERY (pun intended).

The sad thing is it is working. By the end of this you will have nerfed all xp in the game and half of the player base will be convinced you just had to do it for the good of the game. A large portion of players will have quit over this and miraculously you will discover some new source of lag to keep people obsessed with while you milk this game dead and dry.

I'm over it, if this crap goes live I guess I will start working harder on my lichess rating.
^^^ This!

Streamers are posting videos showing people how to hyperzerg quests and skip monsters. Even though this streamer tells viewers not to do it, posting this video shows viewers that this kind of behavior is possible.

Can SSG spend some time holding streamers accountable for this behavior rather than trying to convince us all that zerging is bad and punishing everyone by nerfing XP?

 

ChaoticDrivel

Well-known member
A lot of good points have already been brought up in this and the other thread pertaining to the XP changes. But I just want to reiterate that - as presented - it will still significantly impact players who don't already cause dungeon alert in how they play. And I'm not sure an extra quest or 10 will make up the difference in time & XP.

I think the first time bonus promotes playing a variety of quests and should persist. Perhaps a fraction of it could be moved elsewhere. Though I'm not sure putting it toward killing heaps of mobs is ideal. I do think incentivizing us to do so through other means, as well as venturing off the beaten path, is a lot more preferable, to simply moving the XP toward Conquest. So please just scrap that.

I also think the game's play pattern( and balance) has probably gotten stale for a lot of folks(partly why they're inclined to rush to the end). So we could do with a general shaking up of things.

With that in mind - these are my suggestions that aim to slow us down, in a more engaging way:

-Mobs could use a slight HP buff across the board

-Mobs stats probably need rescaling(again). At the very least - they need their spells/abilities to sometimes land on us. Or give them new ones. Right now, we brush off almost everything thrown our way, in terms of CC by mobs(their damage is largely fine as is). And this is without much investment into Saving Throws. It might be unpopular to some - but we should be getting webbed, slept, slowed, paralyzed, stunned, dominated, silenced, etc. a lot more than we do. But not if we build to counteract it, of course. It's D&D. Stuff going wrong breeds memorable moments. This will also promote team play(something sorely lacking in modern DDO).

-Mobs could get a further 5, 10, & 20% HP + Dmg buff, on Dungeon Alert levels Yellow, Orange, and Red respectively

-Players could get a 5, 7, & 10% Restrained, Subtle & Tactful XP bonus respectively, for triggering only up to Yellow, Green, or no Dungeon Alert levels. No bonus for Orange or Red DA

-Revert the recent Reaper mode change that made it easier to heal out-of-combat. It was not necessary. It made the game's difficulty trivial, when that's not what we need. The previous system rewarded preparation and teamwork; while reinforcing the danger of Reaper mode. One of the difficulties of dungeon delving is also that aspect of attrition. So being mindful of our resource usage was also part of the challenge. But that is invalidated now; just like SP has become redundant. That's not a good thing. Perhaps my biggest pet-peeve with it, is that it's also just very inelegant design. There is no clear indicator for when we are/aren't actually ooc. I would much rather know roughly what I'm going to heal myself for, in any given moment, than have it vary wildly like it does currently

-I think we could do with higher base optional XP everywhere. And in addition - a further 5, 10, 15% Diligent, Thorough, & Meticulous XP bonus for completing a set number of optionals within the dungeon

-Along the same lines - I think optionals could do with housing named loot/cosmetic pets, where it makes sense. Like a dragon guarding a gilded cloak, or even an "adopted" kitty, for that matter. Being another source of crafting ingredients, would also be welcome

-Give us more juicy Saga reward options, to counteract players defaulting to only taking the XP from them

-Improve Cannith Crafting and Collectable turn-ins, so that it encourages us to go off the main path to grab em

-Random loot could do with revitalizing once more

-Implement more creative & deadly traps (mainly for Reaper mode and Epic levels+, in terms of the deadly aspect)

-Design more multi-faceted encounters that require specific tasks to be completed before progressing. This allows for segmenting the dungeon better, as well as providing opportune moments for narrative emphasis. Of course, this should be done in moderation

-Add new and better rewards at the Mysterious Remnant vendor. So that we kill stuff for rems

-Add new and better rewards for Monster Manuals. So that we kill stuff even more!

-Bring on some new Champions and Reapers! We are long overdue

-Have the Traveller appear in random locations throughout every dungeon and provide a random boon, if we find and interact with them. The boon could be an XP stone, loot boost, a buff, or a magic item that expires upon exit- like Tesyus

-Have a wee leprechaun fall out of a random killed mob's pocket(once per dungeon), that behaves like a Xachosian eardweller that we need to catch. It can reward an XP stone, loot boost, or a large heap of remnants.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something else that is long overdue is a revamp to stealth. Since all of this is intertwined - it might be time to revisit it. But it also needs to be done right, and therefore probably deserves its very own thread.

I'll conclude by remarking that DDO will likely be in a much healthier place, when the utility of Wizard spells, the stealthing of a Ninja Spy, and the shenanigans of a Swashbuckler are not just viable - but desirable by parties once more.
 

Sgreene

Member
I still am not in favor of getting rid of the first time bonus and shifting it into conquest. Most quests encourage us to follow a set path to complete the story and requiring players to go out of their way to kill more monsters than normal isn't fun. I think that xp bonuses for conquest should be optional, not required to get the same xp as before.

I think the devs should spend more time working on monster pathing and AI rather than changing systems to force players to alter their playstyle. I understand that money doesn’t grow on trees and SSG does not have infinite resources, but these changes do not seem like a good way to fix the technical problems the game is experiencing.
 

PyrotechRick

Well-known member
I'm also not clear how these changes achieve the goal of simplifying the current XP system. I've always thought bravery bonus (now delving bonus) was more confusing than the first time completion bonus. Receiving a bonus the first time you do an quest that goes away if you repeatedly run it....that seems fairly intuitive to me. It may not be what the developers want but it certainly wasn't confusing. Where as having to do the quest on the highest difficulty the first time to get the best XP, when XP already scales with quest difficulty? That felt like doubling up on the same thing.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
-Players could get a 5, 7, & 10% Restrained, Subtle & Tactful XP bonus respectively, for triggering only up to Yellow, Green, or no Dungeon Alert levels. No bonus for Orange or Red DA
Things where another player can be blamed for hurting XP isn't good thing. It'll create hostility in parties, make people not want pugs in their groups, and blame/kick/add to ignore list people if they accidently spike an alert.

Personally I think SSG's comments about lag and zergers has already created a lot of hostility between various players. Lag is a multifaceted issue with a bunch of causes; mob pathing just being one of many (how many different lag fixes have we already seen? doubleshot/strike, how feats are loaded, etc. etc. etc.). There's been forum posts that asking for vindictive levels of punishment towards anyone that moves fast; not just people who red alert non-stop, but people who kill along the way but are zergy. It's not a very nice environment to be in as a player right now if you like to zoom.
 

Jerome

New member
^^^ This!

Streamers are posting videos showing people how to hyperzerg quests and skip monsters. Even though this streamer tells viewers not to do it, posting this video shows viewers that this kind of behavior is possible.

Can SSG spend some time holding streamers accountable for this behavior rather than trying to convince us all that zerging is bad and punishing everyone by nerfing XP?

I really think this is a bigger problem than SSG is willing to admit. Streamers, not just the one in this video, encourage their players to move quickly or even zerg because its been the most efficient way to get xp/min for a very long time.

Then suddenly some lag is 'fixed' and zerging is made out to be evil and horrible for the game. Lets work on fixing the technical problems before accusing played of playing the game wrong.
 

Rugar

Well-known member
I, like others apparently, just don't get it. Are you (the Devs) seeking to lessen AI pathing load on the servers? Or, are you seeking to reward players for killing more mobs? This is super-important to the discussion because I honestly don't think you understand the way most of us play. Let me use myself as a typical player. I would say I fall somewhere between the "ZOOOOOOOM" mode player and the flower sniffer. I break every container along my path and disable every trap to try and get the low-hanging fruit XP but if there is a group of mobs that I know I can bypass without killing them all, I readily do so. When running racial TRs (which is one of my current projects), I typically use an Alchemist or Warlock with a couple of levels of Arti for early access to Repeaters and later access to AoE effects to make things faster.

As it is now, I typically kill everything in my path and don't bother to drag huge groups together because while I do use pots along the way for big XP quests, I don't use pots constantly. I can typically complete a Racial life and gather the 20 tokens necessary to TR in about a week so I am far from the speed runners.

Under the proposed XP changes, you are basically incentivizing me to swap to a Blightcaster or Sorc build for leveling. The fundamental difference for me here is that I'll enter, put up a load of short term buffs, then gather as big a group of mobs as I can on my way to the end so that I can AoE as many as possible using my limited SP. I'm betting that I can average Onslaught by doing this while actually decreasing my run times. The effect however is that I will get less XP per quest (due to your proposed changes and me skipping all the breakables and traps) while actually running a bit faster. The effect on the game engine however is that I'll be trailing groups of mobs trying to get them as large and SP efficient as possible. I won't be purchasing SP pots, I'll be conserving by gathering massive groups and then blasting them down.

If you are encouraging me to kill mobs, this will work to some extent. If you are encouraging me to lessen AI pathing, this is a complete failure and you are incentivizing me to do the exact opposite.
 
I think the best solution so far would be move higher bonus to the Aggression and give a small percent to the others, so even who likes to zerg, will stop to kill a littlebit to get this first bonus and wont leave so many moobs behind. And maybe not reduce to 25% of monster, but 35% maybe.

So with agression bonus the player gets his 190% xp bonus like first time would do(195%).
 

Fizzix

Active member
which is it? We're zerging too fast? or you need to slow XP?

Honestly mobs dont even live long enough for them to be a server side calculation issue doing heroics. AoE splat.

you go about prioritizing mobs killed and folks are just going to round up mobs till red alert and AOE em anyway. Its definitely going to be the prevailing strategy. You've solved nothing and frequency of Red Alerts are bound to get even worse, and if those are indeed the problem rather than you all trying to squeeze more monetization by adjusting integers at low effort, this is leopards ate your face.

your design is mob group, mob group, door, mob group, lever, mob group, puzzle, mob group door, boss fight, prize.

this game needs more rock paper scissors single mob encounters rather than 12 more mobs in a group with a caster an healer

we do not need penalizations for prioritizing efficiency on a grind based game.
_________

If its slowing xp I have some serious issues:

I'd say it takes a solid 18-22 hrs for a fairly proficient player to do a heroic life. maybe 2-3 weeks per life calendar time. Additionally it takes ~ 7-12 hrs for a Epic life so one week calendar time .

A month per cycle seems a fair approximation for a person with any sort of normal availability to devote to video games.

So for a person with a job who plays consistantly every night for a few hours, its 2.5-4 years to get racial completionist and another 5months to a year to get heroic completionist.

Realistically 3-5 years of effort to hit the two big accomplishments for people that dont do this 10hrs a day, another 1- 1.5 to be full completionist.

Devs: We must pump the brakes!!!

Customers: Wut?
 
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ChaoticDrivel

Well-known member
Things where another player can be blamed for hurting XP isn't good thing. It'll create hostility in parties, make people not want pugs in their groups, and blame/kick/add to ignore list people if they accidently spike an alert.

Personally I think SSG's comments about lag and zergers has already created a lot of hostility between various players. Lag is a multifaceted issue with a bunch of causes; mob pathing just being one of many (how many different lag fixes have we already seen? doubleshot/strike, how feats are loaded, etc. etc. etc.). There's been forum posts that asking for vindictive levels of punishment towards anyone that moves fast; not just people who red alert non-stop, but people who kill along the way but are zergy. It's not a very nice environment to be in as a player right now if you like to zoom.
I understand the misgivings. I suppose I was hoping groups would be more proactive about ensuring people are on the same page, and that late comers can enter safely - if the prospect of bonus XP was available. But I can see how it can go the other way too. I guess I do put too much faith in humanity sometimes :)
 

Arcanaverse

Solver of Secrets
Quick response:

Still think its better to put the bulk of the xp gain into completing a quest once and would prefer to explore other options to address the goals being chased. So, still voting against reducing the bonuses from first time completions, but as long as doing a new/different quest yields more xp than repeating... I'm good. As I understand that you won't really wish to let players earn more xp on average as SSG is likely comfortable with where things are for business reasons.

Adjusting quests and thresholds are fine things to do regardless. Also a fan of making the thresholds and reaper xp more visible. Good changes regardless.

Issues/Questions:
- First time bonus currently applies to reaper xp (and quest/leveling xp)
- First time and Bravery are currently tracked separately between heroic and epic/legendary.
- I too could use more clarification on the 200% Reaper XP bonus. I'm guessing there is some backend math that we on the front end are interpreting differently/incorrectly?

Kill More Monsters?
I feel like I'm not connecting a dot.

1. Players not killing monsters = more things that are active and causing lag. Makes sense, I don't think killing more helps this though. Seeking out more things to eliminate I imagine my first reaction is to find ways to get more kills faster. Which likely means more kiting and grouping which would cause more issues not less.

2. Players completing faster = Faster completions means more things loading and unloading. Plus more spikes from completion lag. I kind of get it. Guessing that if the populations grows this will become more of issue later. Conquest... might help with this. Though honestly knowing how many more we need to kill will make more of an impact. "only a few off, lets go kill a few more things to get a better bonus." Even just getting us to check will be slow us down a touch.

3. Players should kill more monsters = Seems to me that it would go against 1 and only maybe help with 2. If I'm correct, it still seems like we'd be better off finding a different solution to the problems you're attempting to address. That being said, I have some other guesses towards benefits for as to why killing more is so desirable.
- Some players see more of the game.
- Some players will see more of the game more often.
- Players will feel more rewarded for that exploration.

To which I'd argue that adjusting the bonus amounts likely won't realize those benefits any more than our current structure does. Though I do admit that by simply changing the numbers may be enough to change perception for a time.

Thus my suspicion that there are more complex and nuanced factors influencing the proposal direction and impacting the parameters that I'm overlooking?
 

Neain

Well-known member
For everyone (including myself) who wants them to remove/move the bonus leveling xp from reaper and make it the same as elite. This is never going to happen. We were told that they didnt want us completing quests faster, and this would 100% speed up completions. sometimes by a bunch.
 

Natashaelle

Time Bandit

kill 80% of mobs in questkill 75% of the mobs in quest

Taking this morning's heroic elite conquest by me on VoN3 as as an example, where conquest required killing about 115% of the mobs (TY infinite respawns in one specific location !!), and if pro-rate works out, I guess that means that killing only 108% of them will get you conq from these changes. Progress !! I guess someone could volunteer to stay back and ensure it, same as happens in many VoN5 runs.

Honestly, I like the general direction of these changes, and regardless anything, zergers will zerg -- but these % numbers really do need to be an accurate reflection of the actual number of mobs in the more linear quests, a reasonable number in those quests having numerous pathways like Dunwater or TOEE, and so on.

Maybe add a fourth tier Overkill in some quests having very large numbers of mobs not needing to be killed in runs combining the main pathway with the principal optionals ?

As to the optionals -- why not instead of straight XP rewards for them, have a +X% xp bonus increasing by however so many that you complete in a quest ? Mirroring the Conquest, Ransack, Secret Doors and Traps system, but more open-ended and perhaps with different progression ?
 
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