Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.
- Thread starter Bazgrim
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You seem to be doing that on purpose.
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Not sure if anyone here called it "completely game-shattering", but the difference is that the multiclass wizard gets the benefits of being a lvl 19 fighter while being just as good at casting that magic missile.
Of course. There are abilities (stats, feats, enhancements) that scale with class level and there are abilities that don´t. There are spells that scale with caster level and spells that don´t. So what ?
Ahpuch
Well-known member
Yeah but its just a magic missile and I doubt that fighter ever bothers with casting it because even cast at CL20 it would not be a good use of his time. And a wizard who is no longer a wizard (past life) can get a better magic missile (10 missiles) without even taking a level of wizard. Does anyone really use that? Is there an actual example of something being overpowered with the Caster Level being Character Level for spells or is the objection still theoretical and ideological?
I am still on the fence that allowing Caster Level to just be Character Level is a good idea. I think flooring Caster Level at 1/2 Character Level might be a reasonable compromise (comparable to how wiz get 1/2 BAB).
Mand O'Lin
Singer of Songs Drinker of Drinks
I think the correct solution is to leave it as is. To compromise would be give-in to a poor idea.
As Chacka said:
"It doesn't make sense"... "if you have 3 levels in wizard"... "you can only cast a web spell as if you were a level 3 wizard."
It does make sense! Because you ARE a level 3 wizard!!! Not a level 20 wizard, not a level 10 wizard, but a level 3 wizard.
Well, I named a few other examples:
It´s besides the point if a magic missile is useful or not, I don´t think a lvl 1 wizard should be treated like a lvl 20 wizard, in the same way as multiclassing a lvl 1 fighter shouldn´t give the BAB of a lvl 20 fighter or multiclassing a lvl 1 bard shouldn´t get 20 bard song uses.
High caster level magic missile is an outstanding ability because it racks up stacks of buffs/debuffs very quickly. The only spell or attack that works faster that I can think of is Past Life Arcane Initiate (Wizard) feat. Past life Arcane Initiate has a limited number of casts. Magic missile does not.
A close-to-free CL 20+ magic missile is absolutely major source of power even though it isn’t directly from the DPS of the spell itself. The additional missiles you get from the free 19 extra caster levels is a huge deal.
Even just a legendary affirmation stick alone would make it worthwhile.
#1. Your attempt at creating a straw man argument is weak.
#2. Limitations are put in place in an endeavor to achieve balance. They don't always succeed, but this one does.
Ahpuch
Well-known member
Yeah but that makes it powerful because of other things that the character has that are unlikely to be used by a non-dedicated caster. I doubt the 19/1 fighter/wizard would be finding it useful to be on that path that gets them the benefits of which you speak.
In the case of the Affirmation stick, I don't see that either. The wiz PL MM is limited to 10 missiles but with Affirmation having a 1 min cooldown that should be enough to max out the benefit. Maybe the people I play with make poor choices but I don't see any fighters taking the the wizard PL to get exploit the benefits of the Affirmation stick.
I would probably be much stronger on the side of "Can't change Caster Level" if this game was not already an over bloated power creep over anything PnP had. With how the game plays now, I still don't see how a Caster Level change would destroy the fine tuned character balance. I also can't see that it would be enough benefit to most players to make it worth the effort of the devs to change.
Ahpuch
Well-known member
I don't think a 20 min blur is much of an issue as it is easily available as permanent effect on so much gear. Angelskin is closer to being an issue but it is still only 12 extra PRR/MRR for 12 extra minutes which is only nice. I also don't think getting 30 resist for 20 min from an elemental resist is game breaking nor 120 hp buffer from stoneskin.
My bigger concern is that the effort the devs would be putting into this is pointless as it would not really be used. They have better things to work on.
Eltronin
Kobolds don't matter
Heavy Armor Proficiency does not scale with class levels and it does not scale with character level. It does not scale at all. Your example has nothing to do with scaling.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Yes exactly! I told the other poster that abilities does not have to scale with class level and the response was "that your OPINION and it's wrong!1!"
Thank you.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
The exact words were "outrageously abusive of EVERY differential in the games, both D&D and DDO" and "outrageous violation of basic D&D and DDO design".
I don't see why getting the benefits of lvl 19 fighter is somehow much better than getting the benefits of lvl 20 wizard. Them being just as good at casting magic missile does not create an imbalance.
The other poster claimed that was just "your opinion" and disagreed with it.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
15 SP every 5 minutes or every 20 minutes is a complete non-issue. It's a miniscule difference in power, and it mostly affects the players quality of life positively.
Paladins get 25 PRR/MRR at level 3. Spending 8 class levels to get 20 PRR/MRR at level 20 is not overpowered at all. You would not pick 8 paladin levels for this bonus alone, so if you could already cast the spell you had 8 PRR/MRR already. +12 PRR/MRR at level 20 is not overpowered, not even close.
Still waiting for the overpowered examples.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
I agree, and no one is asking for a lvl 1 wizard to be treated like a lvl 20 wizard. A level 1 wizard gets 1st level spells and a level 20 wizard gets 9th level spells along with access to spell-focused enhancements. They are not the same even if the scaling of caster level was changed to character level rather than class level. Most class-granted abilities does not scale with class level the way spells do already, so I an really struggling to see the incessant need to keep spells this way.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
What? 3 extra caster levels to a 17 druid/ 3x would not be in the ballpark of overpowered. You don't have to figure out every OP build, just the one.
Because you would get both at the same time ! How is that not an imbalance ?
Well, it´s a forum and you for example disagree with my opinion as well...
You see, as I said, I can come up with whatever example and you would say it´s not overpowered.
He would be treated as a lvl 20 wizard when casting that magic missile !
Why do you think spells should not scale by caster level ? Do you really think the spells in this game are too weak ?
It´s a fundamental game mechanic to balance spells and in my opinion it works.
Every time I bring up some example, the answer is "but those are low level spells, nobody uses them"
Then what are these multiclass caster builds that don´t work in the current system but would work when spells scale by character level ?
How about the other examples ? Should a lvl 1 bard be able sing 20 songs that last for 15 minutes ? Should a lvl 1 fighter get a BAB of 20 ? Should a lvl 1 rogue get 10d6 sneak attack dice ?
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
Why is it an imbalance to combine lvl 1 wizard with 19 additional levels of fighter but not to combine it with 19 additional levels of wizard? The power from lvl 2-20 wizard does not come from boosting your level 1 spells, that is just a negligable part of it.
The difference is that I dont claim that facts are opinions
This is a factual statment, easily verified in game:
There are abilities (stats, feats, enhancements) that scale with class level and there are abilities that don´t.
I was told "that's your opinion and you are wrong" as a response to an equivalent statement.
That is a lie. If you come up with an example that is overpowered I will say that it's overpowered. That you are unable to do so is not my problem.
In that sense a level 20 rogue is treated as a level 10 rogue when it comes to evasion, I dont see anyone having problems with that (yes, the 20 rogue gets more reflex saves but so would any lvl 20 multiclass build. A 20 wizard would get more spellpower, dc and free feats to improve their casting over a level 1 wizard so the example is analogous.)
What exactly is the problem with a level 1 wizard/19 x being treated like a 20 wizard for the purpose of the level scaling of magic missile?
The spells on multiclassed casters are too weak, yes. Someone got their pants completely twisted from the notion that this could make a 10 wizard/10 cleric build playable. How is that a bad thing?? You have internalized the problem so deep that the idea of multiclassing caster classes not being a joke is offensive to you.
Yes, sure. Low level bard songs are not that strong, so it would be a welcome buff for bard splashes and make the songs a little less useless for these characters.
No, why would they? BAB is not a granted ability that scales with class level.
No, why would they? A level 1 rogue is granted 1d6 sneak attack dice. That ability does not scale with class level.
If you find the distinction arbitrary is irrelevant. My focus is soley on caster levels.
Shear-buckler
Well-known member
#1. There was no attempt to create a strawman. If I wanted to do so I would not have asked you to clarify your position. I did literally the opposite of strawmanning you.
#2. Do you have any argument or evidence that it succeed? I would firmly claim that it fails to create balance with the argument (or caim, if you will) that nothing would become imbalanced if it was removed. I would also argue that it does not only fail to create balance, it also contributes to the abyssmal state of caster multiclassing and uselessness of spells in the caster multiclassing that occurs.
Eltronin
Kobolds don't matter
You are saying a rogue sneak attack doesn't scale with class when in fact it does. As the rogue goes up in level (Rogue levels), he receives more sneak attack dice. Their sneak attack is not based off of character level.
You use evasion in your arguments. Evasion does not scale with class or character levels so is irrelevant to this discussion.
You mention that BAB is not a granted ability that scales with class level...you are absolutely wrong. BAB is granted to ALL classes and does scale with Class level.
So using your own argument: If I wanted to do 19wiz/1fighter, then my level 1 fighters abilities to stay usefull at higher levels would need to have the BAB of a level 20 Fighter. That makes no sense and so does your argument for a level 1 wizard to be able to cast as a level 20 wizard regardless if they are low level spells.
Well, you want to change the fundamental rules of the games, so it´s your job to provide a good reason for that.
All you did so far was to say that it would open up better caster multiclass options, but didn´t give any examples either.
I won´t go through all of the hundreds of spells to find an example you might accept. I already gave several examples.
Yes, it does, 20 fighter levels give you +20 BAB while 20 wizard levels only give you +10
Yes it does, 20 Rogue levels give 10d6 sneack attack dice, while wizard levels give you none.
So, 20 wizard levels give you 20 caster levels, while 20 fighter levels give you none.
Why should a lvl 1 wizard/lvl 19 fighter be able to cast a magic missile like a lvl 20 wizard when a lvl 1 fighter/lvl 19 wizard doesn´t get the same BAB as a lvl 20 fighter ? Or a lvl 1 rogue/lvl 19 wizard doesn´t get his 10d6 sneak attack dice ?
I get it, those abilities don´t scale in the same way as spells, but they still scale with class level.
So why do you feel the need to boost low level spells if they are negligable ?
Do you feel like spells in the game are currently too weak ?
Because I feel like spells in general are much stronger than melee/ranged attacks and caster levels (and SP costs) are there to balance them.
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