Spells, attacks, heals, buffs etc. should scale with character level not class level.

[Bazgrim]

This really neuters the entire multiclass mechanic. There are enough restrictions in place without it to make multiclassing an interesting choice without it being overpowered and it would open up a lot of build variety.

 

[Shear-buckler]

You are saying a rogue sneak attack doesn't scale with class when in fact it does. As the rogue goes up in level (Rogue levels), he receives more sneak attack dice. Their sneak attack is not based off of character level.

A rogue gains sneak attack at certain levels just like a fighter gains feats at certain levels. That is not the same thing as spells granted at a certain level scaling with class levels.

You use evasion in your arguments. Evasion does not scale with class or character levels so is irrelevant to this discussion.

It's not irrelevant. It's an example of it being perfectly reasonable to gain a class ability that does not require future commitment to said class. It refutes the argument "you should not be as good at <class ability> if you have fewer levels in the class".

You mention that BAB is not a granted ability that scales with class level...you are absolutely wrong. BAB is granted to ALL classes and does scale with Class level.

BAB is not the same as caster level. BAB is granted at level up, just like fighter bonus feats.

So using your own argument: If I wanted to do 19wiz/1fighter, then my level 1 fighters abilities to stay usefull at higher levels would need to have the BAB of a level 20 Fighter. That makes no sense and so does your argument for a level 1 wizard to be able to cast as a level 20 wizard regardless if they are low level spells.

No that is not analogous to my argument at all. My argument is that the caster level system for spells is as if you took 1 level of fighter and grabbed cleave as a feat, then the effectiveness of the cleave was directly tied to your fighter levels making it completely useless if you did not continue as a mostly pure fighter. I highly doubt you would like that system, so why are you defending it's equivalent?

My argument for why a 1 wizard/19x to be able to cast level 1 spells as a 20 wizard is equivalent to why a 10 rogue/10 x should be able to evade as a 20 rogue. Repeating "evasion doesn't scale" does not refute this argument.

 

[Eltronin]

A rogue gains sneak attack at certain levels just like a fighter gains feats at certain levels. That is not the same thing as spells granted at a certain level scaling with class levels.



It's not irrelevant. It's an example of it being perfectly reasonable to gain a class ability that does not require future commitment to said class. It refutes the argument "you should not be as good at <class ability> if you have fewer levels in the class".



BAB is not the same as caster level. BAB is granted at level up, just like fighter bonus feats.



No that is not analogous to my argument at all. My argument is that the caster level system for spells is as if you took 1 level of fighter and grabbed cleave as a feat, then the effectiveness of the cleave was directly tied to your fighter levels making it completely useless if you did not continue as a mostly pure fighter. I highly doubt you would like that system, so why are you defending it's equivalent?

My argument for why a 1 wizard/19x to be able to cast level 1 spells as a 20 wizard is equivalent to why a 10 rogue/10 x should be able to evade as a 20 rogue. Repeating "evasion doesn't scale" does not refute this argument.

YES BAB is the same as caster level. BAB is granted at level up in your class just like Caster level is granted at class levels. THE SAME THING.

Evasion is irrelevant. it does not scale. Just like Wizard being able to wield a dagger. The skill does not scale by class or character level, you just know how to use one.

And yes, sneak attack using your argument scales with class level. You do not get more sneak attack dice unless you level in rogue. You do not get more spell power unless you level in Wizard. You are not grasping the concept that multi classing will not give you equal power among the class you take to a pure class.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Well, you want to change the fundamental rules of the games, so it´s your job to provide a good reason for that.
All you did so far was to say that it would open up better caster multiclass options, but didn´t give any examples either.
I won´t go through all of the hundreds of spells to find an example you might accept. I already gave several examples.

I am happy to provide examples when continuos fundamental misunderstandings and misrepresentations are weeded out.

You gave me zero examples of where this would be imbalanced.

Yes, it does, 20 fighter levels give you +20 BAB while 20 wizard levels only give you +10

Yes it does, 20 Rogue levels give 10d6 sneack attack dice, while wizard levels give you none.

So, 20 wizard levels give you 20 caster levels, while 20 fighter levels give you none.

BAB and sneak attack are abilties and stats granted at level up, that is not the same as an ability that is granted and then scaling with class level. A caster level is instrinsically a scaling mechanic and is therefore cathegorically different.

Why should a lvl 1 wizard/lvl 19 fighter be able to cast a magic missile like a lvl 20 wizard when a lvl 1 fighter/lvl 19 wizard doesn´t get the same BAB as a lvl 20 fighter ? Or a lvl 1 rogue/lvl 19 wizard doesn´t get his 10d6 sneak attack dice ?
I get it, those abilities don´t scale in the same way as spells, but they still scale with class level.

Because lvl 1 fighter/lvl 19 wizard would get full use of every ability that was granted at the level 1 fighter. Nothing that you get at level 1 fighter scale with class level. A level 1 rogue/lvl 19 wizard would get full use of every ability that was granted at level 1 rogue. Nothing you get at level 1 rogue scale with class level.

The counter question is why a level 20 rogue should be able to evade as a level 10 rogue/10x? (yes, the 20 rogue gets more reflex saves but so would any lvl 20 multiclass build. A 20 wizard would get more spellpower, dc and free feats to improve their casting over a level 1 wizard so the example is analogous.)

So why do you feel the need to boost low level spells if they are negligable ?
Do you feel like spells in the game are currently too weak ?
Because I feel like spells in general are much stronger than melee/ranged attacks and caster levels (and SP costs) are there to balance them.

Yes, spells on caster mutliclasses are too weak.

 

[Tilomere]

High caster level magic missile is an outstanding ability because it racks up stacks of buffs/debuffs very quickly. The only spell or attack that works faster that I can think of is Past Life Arcane Initiate (Wizard) feat. Past life Arcane Initiate has a limited number of casts. Magic missile does not.

A close-to-free CL 20+ magic missile is absolutely major source of power even though it isn’t directly from the DPS of the spell itself. The additional missiles you get from the free 19 extra caster levels is a huge deal.

Even just a legendary affirmation stick alone would make it worthwhile.

Not really when you already get +6 free caster levels from epic/legendary levels, and can slot +2 arcane caster levels, and already get a max CL 9 MM with 1 lvl of wiz, yet no one does.

 

[Shear-buckler]

YES BAB is the same as caster level. BAB is granted at level up in your class just like Caster level is granted at class levels. THE SAME THING.

No it's not the same thing. BAB is not a scalar for class ablities. Since you ignored what I said I will repeat it:

My argument is that the caster level system for spells is as if you took 1 level of fighter and grabbed cleave as a feat, then the effectiveness of the cleave was directly tied to your fighter levels making it completely useless if you did not continue as a mostly pure fighter. I highly doubt you would like that system, so why are you defending it's equivalent?

Evasion is irrelevant. it does not scale. Just like Wizard being able to wield a dagger. The skill does not scale by class or character level, you just know how to use one.

It's not irrelevant. It's an example of it being perfectly reasonable to gain a class ability that does not require future commitment to said class. It refutes the argument "you should not be as good at <specific class ability> if you have fewer levels in the class".

And yes, sneak attack using your argument scales with class level. You do not get more sneak attack dice unless you level in rogue. You do not get more spell power unless you level in Wizard.

A level 1 rogue/lvl 19 wizard would get full use of every ability that was granted at level 1 rogue. A level 1 wizard/19 rogue does not get full use of every ability that was granted at level 1 wizard, because spells are uniquely tied to class levels.

You are not grasping the concept that multi classing will not give you equal power among the class you take to a pure class.

It works exactly like that for most abilities though, which is the concept that you fail to grasp. Spells are uniquely singled out to depend on class levels.

 

[Eltronin]

Because lvl 1 fighter/lvl 19 wizard would get full use of every ability that was granted at the level 1 fighter. Nothing that you get at level 1 fighter scale with class level. A level 1 rogue/lvl 19 wizard would get full use of every ability that was granted at level 1 rogue. Nothing you get at level 1 rogue scale with class level.

Ok one last time maybe you will get it. If not, you are showing your ignorance and inability to listen to others who are proving you wrong so many times.

Nothing you get at level 1 rogue scale with class level....YES, SNEAK ATTACK SCALES WITH ROGUE LEVEL. go look to rogue in the Wiki or compendium and you will see that as you level with rogue, your sneak attack improves. It is right there in print telling you how wrong you are.

Stop with the Evasion argument. IT IS A REFLEX SAVE THAT YOU MUST MAKE. Go read what evasion is and stop using it in your argument as it has nothing to do with class levels. And when you do read it, you will see that ANYONE can get evasion. There are many ways to get it so even a 1 Wizard can evade.

 

[Lacci]

No it's not the same thing. BAB is not a scalar for class ablities. Since you ignored what I said I will repeat it:

My argument is that the caster level system for spells is as if you took 1 level of fighter and grabbed cleave as a feat, then the effectiveness of the cleave was directly tied to your fighter levels making it completely useless if you did not continue as a mostly pure fighter. I highly doubt you would like that system, so why are you defending it's equivalent?

But that´s how it is. If you take 1 level of fighter and 19 levels of Wizard, your BAB will be limited to 10, meaning your cleave doesn´t hit as often and it locks you out of greater x-weapon fighting feats, so your cleave will be weaker than that of a pure lvl 20 fighter.
BAB is as important to melee classes as caster level is for spellcasters.

I am happy to provide examples when continuos fundamental misunderstandings and misrepresentations are weeded out.

You gave me zero examples of where this would be imbalanced.

I gave zero examples that would agree with your idea of imbalance, yes.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Ok one last time maybe you will get it. If not, you are showing your ignorance and inability to listen to others who are proving you wrong so many times.

Nothing you get at level 1 rogue scale with class level....YES, SNEAK ATTACK SCALES WITH ROGUE LEVEL. go look to rogue in the Wiki or compendium and you will see that as you level with rogue, your sneak attack improves. It is right there in print telling you how wrong you are.

Stop with the Evasion argument. IT IS A REFLEX SAVE THAT YOU MUST MAKE. Go read what evasion is and stop using it in your argument as it has nothing to do with class levels. And when you do read it, you will see that ANYONE can get evasion. There are many ways to get it so even a 1 Wizard can evade.

The ignorance and inability to listen is on you, which is why you are purposly ignoring key points and singleing out irrelevant points of contention.
I know exactly how sneak attack and rogue levels work, and I am telling you that it is categorically different from caster levels. Caster levels are a scalar for other abilities, sneak attack is not.
And as I have already said you are free to disagree with this distinction, as my focus is soley on caster levels. If sneak attack "scales with rogue levels" is irrelevant to wether or not the game benefits from changing caster levels from class levels to character levels.

No, I am not going to stop with the evasion argument just because it refutes your argument. I know exactly what evasion does. It's an example of it being perfectly reasonable to gain a class ability that does not require future commitment to said class. It refutes the argument "you should not be as good at <specific class ability> if you have fewer levels in the class".

My argument is that the caster level system for spells is as if you took 1 level of fighter and grabbed cleave as a feat, then the effectiveness of the cleave was directly tied to your fighter levels making it completely useless if you did not continue as a mostly pure fighter. I highly doubt you would like that system, so why are you defending it's equivalent?

 

[Eltronin]

Thank you, yet again you have proven your inability to follow facts and understand the game. It amazes me how someone could be shown by so many different people how they are wrong and keep arguing they are right. Have a wonderful time, no longer going to debate with someone who fails to accept when they are wrong. Good day.

 

[Shear-buckler]

But that´s how it is. If you take 1 level of fighter and 19 levels of Wizard, your BAB will be limited to 10, meaning your cleave doesn´t hit as often and it locks you out of greater x-weapon fighting feats, so your cleave will be weaker than that of a pure lvl 20 fighter.
BAB is as important to melee classes as caster level is for spellcasters.

No, your cleave is the same. If you are refering to to-hit then that is no different than the level 20 wizard getting access to more DCs and spell related enhancements.
Taking 1 level of wizard and 19 levels of fighter locks you out of enhancements and dcs, so your spells will be weaker than that of a pure lvl 20 wizard.

Here is the most important point: the equivalence you claim exist would still exist even if caster levels would be tied to character levels instead of class levels.

I gave zero examples that would agree with your idea of imbalance, yes.

You gave examples that were instantly refuted. Where are all the magic missle users today? Taking 8 paladin levels for 20 PRR/MRR is your strongest case, but it's not even remotely close to OP.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Thank you, yet again you have proven your inability to follow facts and understand the game. It amazes me how someone could be shown by so many different people how they are wrong and keep arguing they are right. Have a wonderful time, no longer going to debate with someone who fails to accept when they are wrong. Good day.

I know you don't see it, but your post is highly ironic. I am following the facts to the letter, and understand the game very well.

For me to be shown wrong on this would require someone showing how this change would be bad for the game, either by creating imbalance or unwarranted inconsitency. No one has even been close to doing this. The best you could do was to bog down the discussion in wether or not BAB or sneak attack are abilities that scale with class levels, and that's completely irrelevant. There is a perfect example for an ability that scales with class level, divine grace.

 

[Lacci]

Caster level and class level are exactly the same.
The BAB of a fighter´s cleave is the same as the DC of a wizards spell.
The sneak attack dice of a rogue are the same as the damage dice of a wizards spell.
And all of those scale with class level.
Using Evasion as an example would be the same as using the "Summon Monster" or "Masters Touch" spell as an example (where evasion still indirectly scales with class level because of different saves per class)

But anyway, I`m out of here. Thankfully, I´m pretty sure this suggestion is not likely to be implemented

 

[Shear-buckler]

Caster level and class level are exactly the same.

Demonstrably false. Caster level is a scalar for certain spells that is based on class level, enhancements, items and other things.
Class level is the number of level you have taken in a certain class.

In the current status quo it is true that caster level often is equal in value to class level, but that is a design choice and not an intrinsic part of the mechanic that could not possibly be different.

The BAB of a fighter´s cleave is the same as the DC of a wizards spell.

Demonstrably false. BAB affects to-hit, but is a very small part of it. If you set BAB to 0 for the purpose of cleave it barely affects the efficiency of it. If you set the DC of a spell to 0 it loses half or all of it's effect.

Using Evasion as an example would be the same as using the "Summon Monster" or "Masters Touch" spell as an example (where evasion still indirectly scales with class level because of different saves per class)

"Masters touch" is a great example of a spell being equivalent for a lvl 1 wizard/ 19 fighter and a level 20 wizard.
No one has ever looked at Masters touch and thought it's bad game design that a level 20 wizard is not better than a lvl 1 wizard/ 19 fighter at casting it. No one can explain why it's a game breaking concept to transfer that property to other spells as well.

 

[Scrag]

I wonder if some of the posters in this thread have ever played a. a pen and paper rpg, or b. actually dnd (x->3.5).

This game actually works pretty well with not TOO much hacking at the source material, clearly integrating the fundamentals of both pnp rpgs as a whole and 3.5 and earlier intact.

Without this foundational knowledge that some posters seem to be missing, I do not think it will be possible to move the needle here.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I wonder if some of the posters in this thread have ever played a. a pen and paper rpg, or b. actually dnd (x->3.5).

This game actually works pretty well with not TOO much hacking at the source material, clearly integrating the fundamentals of both pnp rpgs as a whole and 3.5 and earlier intact.

Without this foundational knowledge that some posters seem to be missing, I do not think it will be possible to move the needle here.

Well said. PnP solves this issue with the practiced spellcaster feat, which is missing in DDO. This has been brought up a couple of times but is consistently ignored.

 

[calouscaine]

"
Practiced Spellcaster
( Complete Divine, p. 82)

[General]

Choose a spellcasting class that you possess. Your spells cast from that class are more powerful.

Prerequisite
Spellcraft 4 ranks,

Benefit
Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus. For example, a human 5th-level cleric/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his cleric caster level from 5th to 8th (since he has 8 HD). If he later gained a fighter level, he would gain the remainder of the bonus and his cleric caster level would become 9th (since he now has 9 HD). A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect. This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.

Special
You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class. For instance, a 4th-level cleric/5th-level wizard who had selected this feat twice would cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.

Also appears in
Complete Arcane"
----------------------
It should be noted, this feat in pnp can only be used once per caster class, and only raises the level of known spells so far as what they are cast at, effectively the same thing can be achieved in ddo with gear that raises your casting level of spells. The feat is not needed in ddo, since it has been provided in gear that can be acquired and used by anyone.

 

[Buddha5440]

You are answering the question "why doesn't evasion scale with level?" with "because evasion doesnt scale with level". That means you are fundamentally missing the point.

I completely agree that a pure wizard, should and do get higher DCs. That makes sense and is consistent with the rest of the game.

What sticks out and is the topic of this thread however is caster levels. They are uniquely tied to class levels, almost nothing else is. Spells scaling with class levels is like if evasion would scale with class levels and only allowed you to evade targets or traps equal to your evasion-class level. Why is that a better system?

No, I'm saying Evasion doesn't scale with level because Evasion is not scale-able.

I also didn't see anywhere in this thread that said "why doesn't evasion scale with level?".

Caster levels do and SHOULD only scale with levels in the class of whatever spell.

'I learned a spell so every level I advance should make it more powerful even if every level since then was about learning how to use martial weapons'... This makes no sense.

 

[Buddha5440]

Well said. PnP solves this issue with the practiced spellcaster feat, which is missing in DDO. This has been brought up a couple of times but is consistently ignored.

DDO is NOT D&D.

 

[Buddha5440]

I know you don't see it, but your post is highly ironic. I am following the facts to the letter, and understand the game very well.

For me to be shown wrong on this would require someone showing how this change would be bad for the game, either by creating imbalance or unwarranted inconsitency. No one has even been close to doing this. The best you could do was to bog down the discussion in wether or not BAB or sneak attack are abilities that scale with class levels, and that's completely irrelevant. There is a perfect example for an ability that scales with class level, divine grace.

Ok...You become a rogue. You learn how to sneak attack. As you take more levels in ROGUE, you learn how to sneak attack better. If you don't take any more levels in ROGUE, you don't get any better at it.

It's like saying someone who started out as an apprentice electician will get better at it when they switch to an apprentice plumber and then continue on the 'Class' and become a master plumber...They are still an apprentice electrician.

Your whole supposition holds no weight.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Caster levels do and SHOULD only scale with levels in the class of whatever spell.

'I learned a spell so every level I advance should make it more powerful even if every level since then was about learning how to use martial weapons'... This makes no sense.

That is a perfectly valid opinion, but it is just an opinion.

I think caster levels SHOULD scale with character level instead of class levels, and I think the most appropriate way to do it is to implement the practiced spellcaster feat (adjusted for DDO).

DDO is NOT D&D.

Is that supposed to be an argument?

Ok...You become a rogue. You learn how to sneak attack. As you take more levels in ROGUE, you learn how to sneak attack better. If you don't take any more levels in ROGUE, you don't get any better at it.

It's like saying someone who started out as an apprentice electician will get better at it when they switch to an apprentice plumber and then continue on the 'Class' and become a master plumber...They are still an apprentice electrician.

Your whole supposition holds no weight.

With a version of the practiced spellcaster feat it will be more like this:

It's like saying someone who started out as an apprentice electician will get better at it when they switch to an apprentice plumber and then continue on the 'Class' and become a master plumber while taking basic side jobs as an electrician...They are still an apprentice electrician and they have practiced and honed their old skills while not advancing their career.