Please no "silver bullets" in DDO

[Lazuli]

It is also imbalanced to have some casters that can remove immunity on their main element and some that cannot period.

It's just not balanced because the devs haven't given the means to those who can't use their entire spellbook. The wizard for example does not need a bypass, he needs the devs to let him equip a variety of spellpowers and lore, no more, no less. Realistically, the druid and the alchemist didn't need bypass either, but support for their entire spellbook, but it's too late to change this. The sorc is a true specialist, here the bypass is deserved.

If I can use four or five elements efficiently I don't need a bypass. But when the slots in the gear do not allow you to equip yourself for various elements, that is when the problem arises. When all EDs are designed to favor one element, here comes another problem. When all the epic feats are designed to favor one element.... can you see the trend?

But of all these obstacles, equipment is the greatest.

The bypass wasn't bad originally, it's not a bad idea for sorc. But not providing the means for a generalist casting to be viable is indeed a fault of the devs.

 

[NightHiker]

Not sure how you could know whether I am "accomplished" or not.

I'm sorry if it looked like it was a dig on your specifically - that was not my intent. I was mostly speaking in general. In any case, I think we mixed two different things now - quality of gear, and existence of immunity stripping. Immunity stripping aside, current raid gear is unquestionably better than regular gear, mostly because of the crit damage and debuffs that you simply can't find on "regular" gear, so it's the game's reality right now, for better or worse. Whether everyone gets or loses immunity stripping, that will remain the case. So yeah, if you don't have access to it then you'll have to limit your expectations a bit as far as running the highest difficulties solo goes. And by "you" I mean "anyone".

I don't raid all that much, but never the less I stand by the comment that you should be able to build a caster that does R7+ DPS without having a raid item in practically every slot.

It depends - do you mean in a group or solo?

If solo, we can argue about what the exact threshold should be (r6? r7? r8?), but I think it's reasonable to expect that you'd need to have close to the best gear to be able to run the highest difficulties solo (technically, it should not even be possible to solo r8-10, but I guess that ship has sailed, at least till we get a dock upgrade ).

But in a group I absolutely agree and I think this is already the case. You can run the higher difficulties in a group without raid gear, and I don't think getting rid of immunity stripping would change that much, because people will adapt to the new reality. Maybe everyone will need to drop the difficulty down a skull, but other than that it should be fine. Will it be harder to gear overall? Of course - but it will be harder for everyone, and mostly for those who right now only have to gear for one element. Those who already have to slot more than one element because they don't have immunity stripping will be less affected, if at all, everything else remaining the same. That's why I say it should equalize the DPS among casters more than the way it is now.

Anyway, when it comes to soloing ability the biggest hurdles, in my view, are knowledge of the quests and damage mitigation/avoidance - DPS is not the most important thing. The latest nerf to caster damage for the most part only made soloing r8-10 take more time - if you can already survive a boss fight for, say, 2 minutes while you take him down, then you'll likely be able to survive him for 3 minutes instead. I doubt it affected the ability of people who already ran on such difficulties to still complete most of the quests - I avoid running quests above r8 for the most part because it takes a lot longer, not because it is substantialy harder.

In the end, I still think people get too hung up on kill counts and overall, individual performance in what is essentially a co-op game. I don't care if you kill more or less mobs than I do when we're playing together, as long as we're having fun. Most of my competitive spirit is directed towards myself - I push soloing r8-10 right now because it's where I stand as far as feeling challenged, but I was perfectly happy when all I could run was r1, and that was not very long ago (I started playing reaper difficulty - and raids - about 3 years ago, so it was a somewhat slow climb). As long as I can keep pushing myself to do better and still have room to grow I'll be happy.

Cheers,
NH

 

[NightHiker]

When all EDs are designed to favor one element, here comes another problem.

Well, Primal has equal support for multiple elements, and there is some support to multiple elements on other trees aside from DI - and Fatesinger, though that one is not seen as a dps tree anyways - but I agree even more support would be welcome.

But of all these obstacles, equipment is the greatest.

I'm totally with ya on this one, though. There are very few options for multi element casters as far as gearing goes. I have pretty much just one "optimal" set up I can use. Outside of lots of Dino gear, I don't see other alternatives. And the gear from content since IoD will likely remain unused, without equivalent effects being available on them. I didn't even try to look at the new gear to see if I could replace any item - which kinda limits my interest in running such content. Once I finish my reaper farming in the next few lives I'll likely never run Morgrave quests again, for example.

Cheers,
NH

 

[PaleFox]

Well, Primal has equal support for multiple elements, and there is some support to multiple elements on other trees aside from DI - and Fatesinger, though that one is not seen as a dps tree anyways - but I agree even more support would be welcome.



I'm totally with ya on this one, though. There are very few options for multi element casters as far as gearing goes. I have pretty much just one "optimal" set up I can use. Outside of lots of Dino gear, I don't see other alternatives. And the gear from content since IoD will likely remain unused, without equivalent effects being available on them. I didn't even try to look at the new gear to see if I could replace any item - which kinda limits my interest in running such content. Once I finish my reaper farming in the next few lives I'll likely never run Morgrave quests again, for example.

Cheers,
NH

Sorry, but you can pritty much mix and match craft some level 29 rods into a single staff.
That said, there are plenty of belts, rings, staffs and other stuff that support two or even three spell power types.

Take a look at:

https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Spell_Power_items

https://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Nonstandard_Spell_Power_items

And yes that does take some swapping around your gear, isn't easy for sure. But to say there are just a few options.
Heck, even DC wise for your spells you won't be far off.

That said, so far only spells that have elemental damage attached to them can be raised in CL and MCL?
Hmn, there is also arcane and divine raising of caster levels.

 

[DBZ]

There's alot more support for fire n ice at cap then acid or lightning

 

[ShotCaller]

What's next? Maybe a giant laser I can hit at the start of a quest that will kill everything in the dungeon.

FIRE THE GIANT "LASER"!!!

 

[NightHiker]

Sorry, but you can pritty much mix and match craft some level 29 rods into a single staff.

You missed the fact none of those include the dino debuffs and crit damage buffs. At endgame those are more important than raw spellpower - which is why I decided to drop insightful sonic spellpower (couldn't fit it in the new set), because all the extra crit damage and the dino debuffs more than make up for the extra 70 something spellpower in that one element (if you don't have Dino gear right now, go to Lammania next time it opens up and craft yourself a full dino set with double weapon debuffs and all the crit damage and go run some quests to compare with the damage you do now - you'll quickly realize this).

You have decent multiple element support for spell power alone, but if you want to get the best possible gear set as far as caster DPS goes, right now you have only one option, and that's Dino gear. Nothing that came before or after it can really compete (you can get them on LGS but you lose on augment slots and set bonuses, and it's an even worse grind).

Cheers,
NH

 

[NightHiker]

I just did another quick Grimm & Barret r10 run and recorded it this time. Just a way to back up my argument that one can build for multiple elements and still perform well enough on high reapers. There are a few electric immune trash mobs there in the blue abishais, but it's barely noticeable. The biggest issue is when the boss is electric immune, which was not the case here.

As I mention in the vid description, it was not a completely clean run because I got a bit too cocky there in the end and thought I was gonna be able to finish the boss off before he could cast his next Divine Wrath, so I didn't bother to move. But I miscalculated by less than a second and got killed right as I was casting the last spell to finish him off - which my DoTs did anyways. Here it is:

Cheers,
NH

Note: Yes, I use hirelings/summons - the build's name is Storm Summoner after all - it is a feature of the build, since it uses the Primal mantle + Primal and Magus boosts to hires. Feel free to say that's not really soloing, but not if you're among the people who are always saying hirelings are useless on reaper difficulty. Can't have the cake and eat it.

 

[CBDunk]

Just a way to back up my argument that one can build for multiple elements and still perform well enough on high reapers. There are a few electric immune trash mobs there in the blue abishais, but it's barely noticeable.

Electric immunity is barely noticeable because you were spamming a bunch of SONIC damage effects (e.g. Sound Burst, Horn of Thunder, Greater Shout, Shout, Harmonic Resonance, etc) and NOTHING has immunity to sonic. There were cold and electric damage effects (e.g. Burst of Glacial Wrath, Thunder Snow, Chain Lightning, Electric Loop, etc) mixed in, but you were doing about as many sonic attacks as cold and electric combined.

Of course, there aren't really any viable sonic builds for Alchemists, Druids, or Sorcerers... which is why those casters get immunity removal options instead. This isn't as good as sonic damage, since you lose damage done before/as the immunity is removed and the removal doesn't last very long, but it keeps them viable.

Sure, people can and DO build multi-elemental casters... whether they have immunity removal or not. No reason to NOT do extra damage. I doubt there are many Blightcasters who do NOT spec to max out at least two of Acid, Poison, and Thorn (Piercing) damage. However, there are also builds (e.g. Eldritch Knight / Fire Savant Sorcerer) where it just isn't really plausible to do more than one element at all well.

 

[DBZ]

R10 gop boss immune to ice and electric and they can add all kinds of immunes to all elements any time they want its just not worth it

LIke i here the new vecna raid boss casters need stripping or waste of a slot

 

[NightHiker]

Electric immunity is barely noticeable because you were spamming a bunch of SONIC damage effects

Sorry, maybe I was not clear enough on what the intent of the video was, but you completely missed my point there. It was not about the immunity part, mostly, but about the viability of gearing for 3 elements (it was right there on the part you quoted: "Just a way to back up my argument that one can build for multiple elements"), which has been the main point of people against the immunity stripping removal: people are saying that if you try to build/gear for 3 elements, you'll lose too much damage overall, INCLUDING scenarios where you don't need the immunity stripping.

So forget the sonic part. It could have been any other 3 element combinations, because most of the mobs had no immunities anyways - my intent was to show that WHATEVER element combination I did use, it was backed up by good enough spellpower, spell crit chance and spell crit damage numbers for all three. That was the main point.

It could have been fire and electric, just cold and electric, acid/force/poison, or whatever 2 or 3 element combo you'd like to feature (even fire savant sorcs could still do fire/acid or fire/electric, for example, aside from force for ruin). The point was that even though you do lose some damage on your main element (whatever it is, as I do lose some of my sonic damage building for all three), it was not as much as people have been claiming it would be, while still providing alternatives for when you meet immune mobs.

Cheers,
NH

P.S.: Just as a note, sonic is really not a good parameter as a main element because even though pretty much nothing is immune to it, all those sonic spells combined still do not give me a full, 100% uptime rotation - so even without taking immunity into consideration, I still need to build for the other two elements (which is also the reason I'm a Stormsinger and not a regular Spellsinger). And sonic is not really that great on single target damage either - there's no big single target damage sonic hitter, most of my single target damage is electric/cold. If I used only sonic against the boss at the end I would have taken 3 times as long to finish him. I know because that's what happens when I have to face one of the few bosses that are immune to both electric AND cold damage, like the one at the end of "Seizing the Dawn" or "Trial of Archons".

P.S.2: Also have in mind that's a Stormsinger, an archetype widely regarded as a second tier nuker by veterans - so it's hardly a powerhouse to begin with.

 

[CBDunk]

No... I got it.

MY point was that the people saying that you lose too much damage if you try to do multiple elements are CORRECT... for SOME builds. Specifically, those where immunity removal is required to be viable and especially those where you only really GET options for one damage type, and/or nerfs to other damage types.

Again, you are absolutely right that there are plenty of ways to build a nuker who handles multiple damage types well... but there are also some builds where you are much better off concentrating on just one kind of spell craft/chance/crit.

 

[NightHiker]

MY point was that the people saying that you lose too much damage if you try to do multiple elements are CORRECT... for SOME builds.

Can you give me some examples? Like I said, I don't know other casters as well as I know bards in general and Stormsingers in particular - I've played pretty much all of them, but not nearly as much and never with the intent to excell as much as possible at endgame.

Is it gear? Is it destinies? Feats? Any combinations of those?

One caster I'm almost as familiar with is artificer. As they're currently supported they would definitely be in a bad spot (well, worse, as they're already in a bad spot) without immunity stripping - but I don't think it's because of gear or actual class features. It's mostly because they simply don't have enough options for damaging spells outside of electricity. They need more force and fire options, maybe even some sonic ones as it would fit thematically (things that can be emulated with technology as well as electricity) and it's supported by Machrotecnic. Or even some light options would fit as well. The recent changes to rune arms also helped, but they are still the class I think would lose more without immunity stripping as the game currently stands.

Druids, sorcs, alchemists, which are the other classes that currently have immunity stripping, definitely got enough spell variety to feature 2 or 3 elements. Gear wise I don't think they'd be harder to set up than my stormsinger - maybe not all the combos have the same support as electric/cold does, but then it would just be a matter of adding a few more options gear wise, nothing game changing. One would need to be more creative with destinies setup instead of going mainly for draconic, but as I said I think more build variety would be a good thing.

Again, I'm not assuming they would not lose some damage on their main element compared to now - I'm expecting it, and think it would be good for balance purposes.

The other casters, like Wizards (outside of negative and it's not really that great either), Clerics, FvS and Warlocks, currently already don't have immunity stripping, so removing it from the game won't make their lives worse, they'd likely actually become more competitive compared to those above.

Cheers,
NH

 

[Lazuli]

No, NightHiker. Stop asking for nerfs that cause major changes to builds. People are really tired of their builds ending up being useless and having to change them. Continuing with this trend of asking for nerfs is a great way to end up destroying the game. What happens in this game that players only know how to ask for nerfs to classes they don't play?

No. No more nerfs. The bypass has been here too long to change it. The company that is constantly taking away what it has given ends up losing all the trust of its customers.

Also, how the hell is removing the specialist bypass going to give my wizard the versatility he needs? The blame for this lack of versatility lies in a stupid design of equipment and EDs that only thinks about specialists. If the devs start designing the equipment in a way that supports equipping more elements than currently, much of the problem is solved. A nerf to other classes doesn't solve anything for me.

This argument is the same as the cries we've seen many times "I'm not able to survive in high reaper, nerf other classes". Please. We are smarter than that.

Devs must be asked to support generalists. That's it. There is no need to harm other builds that are fine. Let me slot more spellpowers/lores, so the ability to have more spells prepared and be able to change them in shrine means something. AND THAT'S IT.

 

[Lazuli]

In short: I don't need bypass in my wizard. I don't need a nerf to other classes. I need them to let me be able to use my full spellbook instead of having to specialize in two elements like a sorc. And if the devs had designed magus of the eclipse like it was an ED for wizard instead of a damn prestige class (the place for prestige is in heroic, devs, when we decide what we are; epic is the time to beef up what we already are), everything would be much better for the wizard.

But no, they made an ED that satisfied the fantasies of a dev, but did not think about reinforcing what the wizard is (a specialized ED for a generalist class). And that's how it goes for us.

 

[DBZ]

Ice builds are at the abolute top of the pinnacle you should know that

Storm has ice gear feats eds filigrees if anything needs a nerf its ice

 

[Lazuli]

Ice builds are at the abolute top of the pinnacle you should know that

Storm has ice gear feats eds filigrees

Devs need to support all elements equally. Its design, frankly, seems pretty random to me. That's very visible in the gear, where there doesn't seem to be a plan in mind, and item stats seem like they're determined by dice rolls. But on a smaller scale it also happens with other game options.

Frankly, their idea that EDs can only have three spellpowers per ED is pretty bad. Great for specialists, but for generalists, not so much.
And the mantles? Terrible for generalists. The only one who was decent to them was Shiradi, and they took it upon themselves to destroy him.

 

[NightHiker]

No, NightHiker. Stop asking for nerfs that cause major changes to builds...

This argument is the same as the cries we've seen many times "I'm not able to survive in high reaper, nerf other classes". Please. We are smarter than that.

While what I am proposing is technically a nerf, I come from a completely diferent place - first because I'm prefectly fine with where I stand - running r8 to r10 depending on the quests, while still having some room for growth in both playing ability and theorycrafting to keep pushing further.

Second, because contrary to most of the nerfs devs have implemented to casters in the recent past, that's a move that would increase build variety instead of curtailing it.

For example, I was completely opposed to the 10-30% flat nerf to caster damage on high reapers - because it impacted everyone equaly without adressing all the imbalances already in place between the several caster classes. It hit harder classes that were already underperforming, like bards, artis, warlocks and your beloved wizards, for example, when the outliners were sorcs, alchemists and druids. And why those are the outliners? In very large part because of the immunity stripping that allows them to focus on just one element. What I'm proposing is what I think they should have done then, instead of the blanket nerf - equalizing performance among caster classes and bringing the outliners closer to the underperformers.

If they remove immunity stripping, they could even dial back some on that blanket nerf, for example.

Also, immunity stripping is not just an easy fix for players, but also for devs. While some here have implied that's a good thing, it also encourages lazy thinking on the developers' side - as long they have the immunity stripping carrot to dangle in front of the more power hungry, they have less motivation to adress the deeper, sistemic issues plaguing the game and the underperforming classes. Do you think everyone who plays a cold druid or a cold sorc do it because they absolutely love the classes, or is the fact they're currently the best performers a huge factor?

I do think that if we get rid of immunity stripping we'll see more balanced numbers in regard to caster builds being played at end game. With more people playing other classes, there's more reason to look at them and improve their current state. And then we also rein in the power creep a little bit and give the current reaper difficulties a little more lifespan.

So, TL;DR; version: My position is connected to two very present issues in the game right now: lack of balance and build variety, and power creep making the game too easy, bringing it closer and closer to the position it was in when they first thought of creating reaper difficulty to begin with. Both issues are also connected and one of the causes in my view is immunity stripping. You may disagree with my conclusion, but I think what I'm suggesting would help in regard to both issues.

Cheers,
NH

 

[Lazuli]

No no no. No to major changes in the builds. You have no idea the kind of anger a change like that would create, and I'm sure we would lose a lot of players again. No. Giving and taking away is very bad design.

If they want to expand the builds, stop designing only for a small segment of them. Nerfing the specialists doesn't help the generalists, full stop.

 

[DBZ]

Cant wait till they hammer ice from orbit see if you still have the same tune then

If you really want balance that is