Please no "silver bullets" in DDO

[NightHiker]

Trying to get multiple elements with spell power, crit, and crit damage is a tetris nightmare that goes beyond limited spell slots/trees being a problem. There's gear set bonuses, LGS(dino) spell crit damage, etc., while also having decent enough DCs to not have every mob reflex (etc.) save, the gear isn't rigged to really support swapping element choices per mob type. Not having immunity bypass would require sweeping revamps of all sorts of parts of the game; so it makes sense we have immunity bypass, it's cheap to implement and requires less dev time to achieve the same end result even if it feels a bit lore breaking or awkward at times.

My Stormsinger has, respectively, 950/1000/950 spellpower (cold/electric/sonic) self buffed inside reaper not counting metas, 68/69/76 crit chance and 96/111/96 crit damage, with 125 evo and 122 enchantment DCs, which I find to be good enough on current end game. And then around 600 positive, which is as much as I could get. And I still have dino weapons with both mrr debuffs sloted, plus all the usual elemental dots/damage procs besides magma (2 rings and 2 weapons).

It's certainly not as high as the 12 or so hundred spellpower the dedicated element casters may be getting nowadays, but it's not so worse as to make it not viable even while soloing high reapers. Maybe for some classes it may be tougher on the DC side, but that's not as hard to fix either, I'd think. I do lose on some of the defenses I usually see on sorcs, though, that can dedicate more pieces to that side of the equation. Like I said, that demands a lot of tough choices, but I believe it can be done even with the state where the game is right now. Maybe some element combos are not covered as well as ice/electric/sonic (I haven't looked as much at other combos), but if so it's something that could be fixed with a few new pieces of gear. There would be some decrease in performance, of course, but not as big as the one I think you're implying - even more so considering that it would hit the most the classes that are currently the top performers as far as caster DPS goes anyways.

Cheers,
NH

 

[DBZ]

It wouldn't even touch druids or sorcs say what

 

[Guntango]

Like I said, randomly choosen. It was just an easy to do a quick example with 75%. I was trying to explain the concept; ideal balancing of those numbers is a whole other debate.

Even when the deep numbers guys get to mathin’, a missed half inch turns into a mile oops.

Your example is easy to understand.

 

[EinarMal]

My Stormsinger has, respectively, 950/1000/950 spellpower (cold/electric/sonic) self buffed inside reaper not counting metas, 68/69/76 crit chance and 96/111/96 crit damage, with 125 evo and 122 enchantment DCs, which I find to be good enough on current end game. And then around 600 positive, which is as much as I could get. And I still have dino weapons with both mrr debuffs sloted, plus all the usual elemental dots/damage procs besides magma (2 rings and 2 weapons).

These are really high numbers, I have very good but not best gear. At least on a Wizard I am more like 50% critical chance on Acid/Force/Cold/Lightning and ~900 spell power on same. Critical damage in 60-90% range across them. Of course I can use IK, have 130 PK, 126 Necro, 124 Enchantment.

I bet these are more typical for someone having to do 2-3 elements.

Would love to see how you get those numbers. Do you have two set GOMF? I would not think most people could ever hit those type of numbers on three elements.

Requiring someone to try to hit numbers like that on three elements v.s. just being an Alchemist/Druild/Sorc and choosing 1/2 is really unbalanced IMO.

 

[PaleFox]

My Stormsinger has, respectively, 950/1000/950 spellpower (cold/electric/sonic) self buffed inside reaper not counting metas, 68/69/76 crit chance and 96/111/96 crit damage, with 125 evo and 122 enchantment DCs, which I find to be good enough on current end game. And then around 600 positive, which is as much as I could get. And I still have dino weapons with both mrr debuffs sloted, plus all the usual elemental dots/damage procs besides magma (2 rings and 2 weapons).

It's certainly not as high as the 12 or so hundred spellpower the dedicated element casters may be getting nowadays, but it's not so worse as to make it not viable even while soloing high reapers. Maybe for some classes it may be tougher on the DC side, but that's not as hard to fix either, I'd think. I do lose on some of the defenses I usually see on sorcs, though, that can dedicate more pieces to that side of the equation. Like I said, that demands a lot of tough choices, but I believe it can be done even with the state where the game is right now. Maybe some element combos are not covered as well as ice/electric/sonic (I haven't looked as much at other combos), but if so it's something that could be fixed with a few new pieces of gear. There would be some decrease in performance, of course, but not as big as the one I think you're implying - even more so considering that it would hit the most the classes that are currently the top performers as far as caster DPS goes anyways.

Cheers,
NH

Wel, cherio for you to get those numbers.

I'm still working on perfecting my cold caster and can say that I can get somewhat close to those numbers.
I'm doing two elements, cold and force and have sonic as a backup plan.
My numbers are about 20% off yours.

 

[EinarMal]

This is basically what we have already, which is actually the problem. 75% sounds reasonable, but when you multiply 75% spell power with 75% crit chance and 75% multiplier you get ~50% damage. Universal should be 85-90% so when multiplied becomes 75%.

I would love this, I would also love more standardization of the critical boosting in caster trees and caster levels. There are also now too many 1 off items that add bonuses that you can basically only get in one or two ways, often in a Raid.

Wel, cherio for you to get those numbers.

I'm still working on perfecting my cold caster and can say that I can get somewhat close to those numbers.
I'm doing two elements, cold and force and have sonic as a backup plan.
My numbers are about 20% off yours.

Let's look at a realistic Wizard build:

Agree, those are good for even most single element casters. For a Wizard if you need 3+ elements (no silver bullets), this is more typical on the critical chance for most builds if you need 3+ elements, and you want to have DPS option for bosses. You also need high DC or you cannot instant kill and crowd control. You need Neco, Illusion, Enchantment, Evocation, Conjuration.

Spell Critical Chance
Magical Training - 5
Energy Criticals - 9
Class - 6
Spell Lore - 22
Exceptional - 5
Artifact - 6

Total = 53%

Critical damage, its probably going to be in 40 - 80% range depending on what Scion feet you pick, and loading up one Dino item.

Spell power again gearing 3+ probably going to be 900 ish.

So on any one element you are looking at roughly:

53% Critical Chance
60% Critical Damage
900 Spell Power

That is more realistic to me without having BIS gear in basically every slot, double set gem, raid set augments etc...

I think a top end Cold Druid let's say would be more like:

75% Critical Chance
100% Critical Damage
1200 Spell Power

Or is it even more?

 

[EinarMal]

This does show the problem though. It is not switch elements and do 75% damage at cap. Your lucky to do 50% of damage just on the base stats of critical chance, critical damage, spell power. While you can swap some gear, you cannot resepc feats, and are unlikely to be able to fit in multiple element artifact bonuses.

Put on top of that the loss of Draconic Breath, Mantle Damage, your Ruin Intensified added damage, and you are probably looking at 30% damage output compared to your strongest element.

Having to use more than 2 elements is basically a death sentence for anyone trying to do DPS casting at cap.

 

[Tilomere]

Cold druid needs force/impulse for ice flowers, and fire sorc needs force/impulse for meteor, and both need devotion/positive lore to self heal, so triple seems standard for high-end dps casters.

Even Alc to maintain high red named dps needs a buncha different burning ambition stacks of each element plus positive for healing.

 

[EinarMal]

Cold druid needs force/impulse for ice flowers, and fire sorc needs force/impulse for meteor, and both need devotion/positive lore to self heal, so triple seems standard for high-end dps casters.

Even Alc to maintain high red named dps needs a buncha different burning ambition stacks of each element plus positive for healing.

This is not remotely the same for classes that can't strip immunity. You also don't need artifact bonus and other things to positive, basically just spell power and maybe critical chance if you can fit it in. Yes most have 2, main element and force, but never lose extra damage on main element.

The bottom line is trying to max out 3+ elements for damage is MUCH harder and likely to be at 50% power at best.

Not to mention loss of Draconic bonus damage of mantle, DB, Ruin Intensified.

It is a huge gap.

 

[NightHiker]

These are really high numbers...

Would love to see how you get those numbers.

Before my reply, a disclaimer: I'm not nearly as well versed on other casters and all the possible gear tetris they have access to as I am with Spellsingers, after literally dozens of lives playing caster bards - so it may be harder for them to achieve what I achieve on my Stormsinger for all I know. It's just that I see many veteran players I assume have a lot more experience with the game than I do talking on the forums about how Stormsingers are subpar nukers on pretty much every Stormsinger thread, so I always assumed that if I am able to get those numbers on 3 elements then people on the "real" top end nukers that most benefit from immunity stripping (druids, sorcs, alchemists) would surely get higher or close to those numbers even if they had to include 2 or 3 elements instead of 1...

Anyways, here's my current full gear setup (there are still quite a few empty dino slots, but they're not relevant DPS wise):

Head: Dinosaur bone helmet - 20% crit damage sonic, 10% crit damage sonic, 5% crit damage sonic, empty, Deacon set, reaper helmet bonus, +2 festive dex, Perform +20

Googles: Attunement's Gaze - esoterica set, greater evocation

Neck: Elyd Charm - feather falling, greater enchantment

Trinket: Bottled Rainstorm - Esoterica set, Essence of Pomura

Armor: Dinosaur Bone mail - 5% exceptional crit chance, 15 exceptional spell power, empty, empty, con 12, heavy fortification

Cloak: Dinosaur bone cloak - 20% crit damage electric, 10% crit damage electric, 5% crit damage Electric, empty, deacon set, spellsight +20, swiftness 15%

Bracers: Legendary Kopru bracers - 20% crit damage cold, +5 insightful con, +2 festive con.

Belt: Legendary black satin waist, +3 qua charisma, esoterica set

Ring 1: Bound elemental ring of lightning - Reaper +1 DC, +12 dex, +5 insightfull dex.

Ring 2: Bound elemental ring of frost - Legendary undying sapphire, resistance +11

Gloves: Dinosaur bone gloves - +15 cha, 10% cold crit damage cold, 5% crit damage cold, +2 sacred DCs, healing amp +50, insighful cha +5

Boots: Osfield Lightning boots, +2 festive cha, false life +54

Weapon 1: Attuned Dino bone sickle - 10% spell cost reduction, Meltfang, +2 exceptional cha, Flamehorn, Meridian frag, Eye of Lammania.

Weapon 2: Attuned Dino bone sickle - Empty, Flamefang, +2 exceptional con, Shadowhorn, empty, sapphire of +32 defense

That gives me the 5 piece Dread set, 3 piece Deacon, 2 piece elemental ring set, Esoterica set.

Notable things missing that I could not fit in the tetris: 4 cha (artifact cha, +1 insightful), insightful sonic.

Either way, that was the best I could do gear wise while trying to maximize both damage and crowd control effectiveness. The toon is also racial, heroic and 4X epic completionist, plus got 146 reaper points. In the end I still get 125 evocation and 122 enchantment DCs before reaper boost, which I find sufficient so far.

Exact spell power numbers inside reaper self buffed are: 981 cold, 1008 electric, 975 sonic (really miss those +71 insightful sonic, but that's the best I could do). The numbers for crit chance and damage are exactly the ones I posted above.

Build wise I invest exactly zero on helpless damage, because frankly I think I have enough trash damage without it and my main issue is red named damage, so I have all epic spellpower/crit damage feats I can get: sonic, electric, cold and positive - so that helps with the overall crit damage numbers (edit: plus Scion of Air). Enhancements wise it's T5 Stormsinger, with 42 Stormsinger, 31 Spellsinger, 9 falconry. Destinies are 35 Fatesinger, 32 Primal, 7 Magus.

I believe that setup should mostly work with other elemental combos other casters would use, but might need some adaptations (and their respective Destinies setup).

Cheers,
NH

 

[DBZ]

Explain the new vecna rune arm then what build is going to use fire lightning storm unless that is going to be the new op sorc archtype

 

[NightHiker]

Not to mention loss of Draconic bonus damage of mantle, DB, Ruin Intensified.

It is a huge gap.

I think people underestimate Primal a lot. Like I said above, a rotation optimized Primal mantle competes pretty well with the Draconic one - wins on AoE (3 procs every 5 secs X 1 proc), but loses a bit on the single target damage (same procs X 1 proc + dot). I do lose some DPS not having the draconic breath, but thunderstroke is an ok replacement on the cold/electric side, and shardstorm is also pretty good for those on acid/poison/force. Fire/light lose a bit on the DPS department but gets much better healing.

Ruin intensified is great, but since as a bard I never really had enough room to fit the ruin feats + force to begin with, I think the Thunderstroke + Iceberg combo is a decent replacement - not as much burst damage but a much lower cooldown. Iceberg (T5 Stormsinger) is the main reason I invest on cold as well, since I really need that extra single target DPS even on non immune red nameds.

Primal also allows me to keep all metamagics on all the time with the Ever green procs, so that also helps to mitigate some of the damage loss compared to other nukers who might have to manage their spell bar more attentively, like druids or even alchemists that don't invest on it. SO while I do leave some DPS on the table not using Draconic, I don't think it's that huge of a loss.

But that because I need Fatesinger as the main tree - other casters can still have both Draconic AND Primal going on (besides/or the new Machrotecnic where appropriate). For example, they can use both the Primal mantle AND the complementary spell while keeping the draconic breath.

Cheers,
NH

 

[rabidfox]

Explain the new vecna rune arm then what build is going to use fire lightning storm unless that is going to be the new op sorc archtype

Gives fire for the runearm blast and dripping with magma damage, gives electric for the caster arti (or arti imbue) damage. It's very much an arti runearm to me.

 

[DBZ]

YA still not compelling without a new arch type

 

[EinarMal]

I think people underestimate Primal a lot. Like I said above, a rotation optimized Primal mantle competes pretty well with the Draconic one - wins on AoE (3 procs every 5 secs X 1 proc), but loses a bit on the single target damage (same procs X 1 proc + dot). I do lose some DPS not having the draconic breath, but thunderstroke is an ok replacement on the cold/electric side, and shardstorm is also pretty good for those on acid/poison/force. Fire/light lose a bit on the DPS department but gets much better healing.

Ruin intensified is great, but since as a bard I never really had enough room to fit the ruin feats + force to begin with, I think the Thunderstroke + Iceberg combo is a decent replacement - not as much burst damage but a much lower cooldown. Iceberg (T5 Stormsinger) is the main reason I invest on cold as well, since I really need that extra single target DPS even on non immune red nameds.

Primal also allows me to keep all metamagics on all the time with the Ever green procs, so that also helps to mitigate some of the damage loss compared to other nukers who might have to manage their spell bar more attentively, like druids or even alchemists that don't invest on it. SO while I do leave some DPS on the table not using Draconic, I don't think it's that huge of a loss.

But that because I need Fatesinger as the main tree - other casters can still have both Draconic AND Primal going on (besides/or the new Machrotecnic where appropriate). For example, they can use both the Primal mantle AND the complementary spell while keeping the draconic breath.

Cheers,
NH

I like Primal, I use Draconic/Primal on my Wizard Deep Gnome with DC/DPS/IK.

My only point is at the end of the day, they need to either remove immunity stripping or give it out to all casters. It is a lot more difficult to gear if you don't have it. You shouldn't need 10+ pieces of raid gear to do decent DPS in my opinion.

 

[DBZ]

And your also losing out on WEIRD which should already be in a wizards level 9 spell lists like ***

 

[Lotoc]

I like Primal, I use Draconic/Primal on my Wizard Deep Gnome with DC/DPS/IK.

My only point is at the end of the day, they need to either remove immunity stripping or give it out to all casters. It is a lot more difficult to gear if you don't have it. You shouldn't need 10+ pieces of raid gear to do decent DPS in my opinion.

Immunity stripping needs to be a feat option if anything.
Maybe limit it to epics with a prereq of a corresponding epic spellpower feat.
I really believe it is a problem how sorcs/druids/alchemists just get immunity strip for playing and building exactly how they'd want to anyway and then for the majority of the rest it isn't even an option.

It's especially interesting that AotS has no immunity strip/bypass option when hellfire lorewise ignores resistances.

 

[NightHiker]

My only point is at the end of the day, they need to either remove immunity stripping or give it out to all casters. It is a lot more difficult to gear if you don't have it.

We mostly agree there. I'd remove it entirely as I think it would equalize all casters to not have the "easy" one element setup - I don't think it's a coincidence the specialist immunity strippers are on top of the caster nuker chain. There'd would still be some work to do with other classes, like wizard and artificer, but I think that would be a healthier baseline than just giving immunity stripping to everyone.

You shouldn't need 10+ pieces of raid gear to do decent DPS in my opinion.

It also depends on what one thinks should be the benchmark. I don't think one does NEED to have full raid gear to be competent and have fun playing the game even now - but we got into this trap of thinking every toon should be judged on being able to easily run the hardest difficulty in the game. It seems what you think is "decent" is to be able to compete with the current most min-maxed toons from quite accomplished players.

We should not be comparing average numbers for versatile casters with top achievable numbers from min maxed specialist uber completionist toons, but with similarly geared toons from players in a similar place progression wise. That's why I don't think the forecasts that people would lose half their damage if we got rid of immunity stripping are realistic.

And if we look beyond the people that participate in the forums, I think there's a significant portion, maybe even majority of the player base, that does not think like that and really does not care that much if they have the highest numbers they can get in the current meta, as long as they're having fun playing whatever difficulty they're able to run. If we keep judging effectiveness having uber completionist toons with BiS gear as the baseline, then nobody but a very few will ever be content.

I believe my Stormsinger is almost at the top of what a multi element toon can achieve right now, so I thought it would be ok to offer it as a comparison when thinking about multi element/versatile casters X one element specialist builds in the current meta. I didn't mean to have it compared with toons/players that are not as far along on their progression.

Cheers,
NH

 

[EinarMal]

It also depends on what one thinks should be the benchmark. I don't think one does NEED to have full raid gear to be competent and have fun playing the game even now - but we got into this trap of thinking every toon should be judged on being able to easily run the hardest difficulty in the game. It seems what you think is "decent" is to be able to compete with the current most min-maxed toons from quite accomplished players.

Not sure how you could know whether I am "accomplished" or not. I've been posting builds on the forums since the start. I play mostly one character and have all epic past lives, all racial past lives, near triple completionist on heroic (missing 4 lives that don't add much) 109 Reaper points and can solo R6 comfortably at end game. I may not be the best player in the game or something but hardly a noob.

I don't raid all that much, but never the less I stand by the comment that you should be able to build a caster that does R7+ DPS without having a raid item in practically every slot.

It is also imbalanced to have some casters that can remove immunity on their main element and some that cannot period.

 

[Lazuli]

This is not remotely the same for classes that can't strip immunity. You also don't need artifact bonus and other things to positive, basically just spell power and maybe critical chance if you can fit it in. Yes most have 2, main element and force, but never lose extra damage on main element.

The bottom line is trying to max out 3+ elements for damage is MUCH harder and likely to be at 50% power at best.

Not to mention loss of Draconic bonus damage of mantle, DB, Ruin Intensified.

It is a huge gap.

This. That's why I said in the Archmage topic:

As I already said in the thread of lammania about balance pass, I find that the main problem that the wizard has right now is not his enhancement trees. Archmage is fine currently, I would really only change some of the core SLAs.

The wizard's main problem is equipment. Currently the gear disproportionately favors specialists with an immunity bypass, since equipping for multiple spellpowers and lores is impossible; There are no slots in the gear for that. A specialist only needs to raise a spellpower+lore to the stratosphere and have some decent support (such as healing) on some secondary spellpower. If you want to use your entire spellbook with a wizard, you can't do that.

For example, my wizard has high cold and force and negative (far from the values of a sorc or a druid, sadly), but when I slot acid well spell, my spellpower & crit are not competitive. Potency and spell lore have values that are too low compared to individual spellpower/lores. And do you know how many items there are for end game spell lore? Look at them, look at them. You're going to cry. It is a stat completely forgotten by the devs.

The same thing happens with spell DC, although my crying (and the other posters) to the devs has achieved more parity in spell mastery items than there is for spell damage. (Yes, I have been fighting for years for parity in the gear between specialists and generalists)

If wizards could be equipped for competitive use of their entire spellbook, having more spells than a sorc would mean something. But today it means little (something, but little), because the gearing will not favor the use of the entire spellbook, nor have all the spells received the pass, so a part of the spellbook remains subpar or useless.

If the devs don't want to change their way of designing equipment, put it on the archmage (at tier 5 or core 12-18) or on the class itself (an innate feat starting at lv 12-- don't steal a feat by forcing it to take it with selectable feats!) allowing potency and spell lore to use the same values as the highest individual spellpower could solve a lot of the problems for the wizard, who is a generalist who is not allowed to be a generalist.

Don't get so obsessed with enhancements. Equipment is more important, because a lot of our spellpower and crit comes from equipment. Enhancements have an influence, of course they do, but without the gear the build is going to leak. And I repeat: due to the current design of equipment the wizard is a generalist who is NOT allowed to be a generalist. It is not possible to use your entire spellbook if your equipment does not allow it.

and:

Although I frankly hate the current loot design, if they don't want to change it, there are other solutions, such as increasing the effectiveness of potency and spell lore items for wizards, and in this sense Archmage is the most thematically appropriate place to do it, since the lore of prestige has always been the magic master who uses a wide variety of magic, compared to specialized concepts such as the master necromancer, diviner, illusionist, enchanter, etc.

Tieflings have things like: Infernal Sovereign (Acid): You use your Fire Spell Power in place of your Acid Spell Power if it is higher, and vice versa. Clerics also have it in some domains. It can't be that difficult to do something similar for wizards, so that they can use their entire spellbook. It could also be something like a wizard's potency and spell lore equals 80-90% of the value of a particular spellpower-lore instead of 50% (now the values are standardized, so given the level of the Potency item we know what the value of an individual Spellpower item of that same level would be). Or 100%, after all a specialist caster needs very few spellpowers, and the wizard still has to equip DC from many more schools than a specialist, and the spellpower epic feats and EDs grossly favor specialists. It seems very easy to code an enhancement like this. But something has to be done.

Honestly, expecting wizards to be on par with a spellcaster with immunity bypass without giving them the tools to be able to use their entire spellbook is a utopia. Having access to more spells than a sorc should mean something.

and:

No, Potency and spell lore items are not "fine" at all. At 50% you are at an overwhelming numerical disadvantage compared to a specialist. You are doing half the damage of a specialist. Even less, because in this game it is the synergies that really determine the power, and the total value ends up being less than 50%.

The equipment needs to give an equal, if not at least approximate, value on a variety of spellpowers for a wizard. If the devs want the greatest number of spells to be the wizard's advantage over specialists with bypass, they have to make those spells viable, not limit the wizard to one or two elements as if it were a specialist, or we always end up running into the problem of immunities and exaggerated resistances.

Specialists already have many other advantages, not the least of which are that EDs and feats are all designed for specialists, or that they also need DC for fewer schools. Not to mention that the specialists' enhancements already give them more dps than the wizard (but I agree with this).

Currently there are Potency and Insightful items in the named gear, with Potency being quite represented. Spell lore is a practically forgotten stat. For wizard there are three items with spell lore 12%: the eclipse itself staff which is ok but closes you the opportunity to use dino weapons, the Epic Noxious Embers necklace which is level 26 and leaves a lot to be desired as an end game item and Legendary Ornamented Dagger which It is a very bad weapon. So I always end up using Legendary spinneret, which only gives 11% and is pathetic when we are talking about a specialist currently slotting 23% lore.

The values of Potency and spell lore items are NOT adequate at all if we want a generalist to be able to do decent damage. They are ok for a specialist who fills in a secondary element, but if we are going to always relegate the wizard to that role, forget them, and make them a sorc, alc or druid with bypass.


It's no use having a "wide array" of spells if you end up doing pathetic damage with them. The savant will always do more damage than the wizard, but one thing is to do more damage and another thing is to do waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more damage. We are talking about generalist items doing %50 less damage. By God, we are not talking about a trifle. We're talking about HALF the damage.

The solution is either to change the design of the gear and allow more spellpowers/lores to be slotted than currently possible, or to do something with the potency/spell lore items, or to add a tiefling-style enhancement that I mentioned before. Potency and spell lore currently DO NOT help the wizard.

Vulnerabilities are very rare. There are many more resistances and immunities (which are everywhere, in all the quests, and more in epics), than enemies with vulnerabilities, which are only in some quests, and are a minimal fraction of the enemies in those quests.

If the devs designed the quests to have an equal number of enemies with vulnerabilities as well as resistances and immunities, you would have a case. But it is not like that. A vulnerability is rare like a phoenix xD.