DarthBUNBUN
Active member
or 98% ineffectiveness depending on mob type. Let's be real here. Unless your being sarcastic.
Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh
- Thread starter Tonquin
- Start date
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BuckGB
Active member
Some suggestions for the Fatesinger destiny:
- A much more compelling mantle with multi-selects for melee/ranged vs. spellcasting builds. I don't want a swirl of notes around me as a ranged build. Functionality that is dependent on playing a song significantly reduces its appeal, too, even for bards.
- More support for swashbuckling builds. Right now, the tree is heavily lopsided toward casters. A couple of multi-selects for "when swashbuckling, your attacks do X" would be welcome.
- Epic strikes that do better damage and an increased cooldown (with damage scaled) to the 2-second Strike a Chord ability, specifically. Right now, you constantly have to spam it, leaving no room for a rotation.
BiggerTrolls
Well-known member
These changes remind me of very particular, and offensive, work situations. There is a type I associate these changes with.
"the play patterns created by that ability were not good."
So I found the fridays at four video. I do actually like hearing from Cordovan and Tonquin. I appreciate them taking the time.
With that said, I'd like to provide some feedback on the whole process. Tonquin was very excited about some of the ideas that came from the players and really wanted to incorporate it and also accurately attribute the ideas to the players. This is outstanding (and no, I'm not one of those players, I just think it is a great way to encourage solid feedback.)
It is unrealistic to think that the devs can playtest everything. There are not enough people nor hours in the day. Getting that feedback from the players is really the only way to find the odd interactions which come from unusual combinations of abilities. This brings me to the critique part: You could do better at focusing us to help and also to explaining. Case in point, "the play patterns created by that ability were not good." What I can learn from that is simply that you saw some build do something you don't like. Based on play experience since launch, when you don't give me clarifying information, I'm going to assume a few things. One, it's happening by an elite player in R7+ content. Two, once you saw the bad thing happen, you got focused on fixing it and did fix it, but to the detriment of all other uses of the ability.
Could you tell us, for example, the builds and "play patterns" you saw that you did not like? Is it a problem when leveling epics or only in end game raids or ??? This extra few minutes could result in more of the ideas Tonquin was excited about and actually have a better (and more accepted) change. Or, people like me might come to share your view that it is overpowered and that while it hurts my playstyle, it is needed.
Right now, all we have is "because we said so."
So I found the fridays at four video. I do actually like hearing from Cordovan and Tonquin. I appreciate them taking the time.
With that said, I'd like to provide some feedback on the whole process. Tonquin was very excited about some of the ideas that came from the players and really wanted to incorporate it and also accurately attribute the ideas to the players. This is outstanding (and no, I'm not one of those players, I just think it is a great way to encourage solid feedback.)
It is unrealistic to think that the devs can playtest everything. There are not enough people nor hours in the day. Getting that feedback from the players is really the only way to find the odd interactions which come from unusual combinations of abilities. This brings me to the critique part: You could do better at focusing us to help and also to explaining. Case in point, "the play patterns created by that ability were not good." What I can learn from that is simply that you saw some build do something you don't like. Based on play experience since launch, when you don't give me clarifying information, I'm going to assume a few things. One, it's happening by an elite player in R7+ content. Two, once you saw the bad thing happen, you got focused on fixing it and did fix it, but to the detriment of all other uses of the ability.
Could you tell us, for example, the builds and "play patterns" you saw that you did not like? Is it a problem when leveling epics or only in end game raids or ??? This extra few minutes could result in more of the ideas Tonquin was excited about and actually have a better (and more accepted) change. Or, people like me might come to share your view that it is overpowered and that while it hurts my playstyle, it is needed.
Right now, all we have is "because we said so."
Bowserkoopa
King of the Koopa's
Well here goes my last ditch effort on this one.
I'm a tank. I take knight's challenge hey this is fun I have a ranged strategic intimidate wherein I can do things like "pull a single orthon" in VoD what a great ability. I'm a tank I take throw the boom suddenly I can now have a ranged intimdate that ALSO stuns devils and bats in VoD what a great ability. But wait here come the second set of Orthons I want to pull ONE of them off the other tank so the DPS can do their job but....OH NO due to taking throw the boom I no longer have access to Knight's challenge AND using intimidate to pull only 1 is rather difficult since there is no way to tell the exact range of intimidate when you use it. (Yes I understand as a player you can learn it but well ya know it would be nice if I didn't have to guesstimate). This leads to a case where I "upgrade" an ability "Knight's Challenge" to "Throw the Boom" and gained some things but I also LOST the ability to have a strategic ranged intimidate. This feels bad and quite frankly "upgrading" an ability should generally not feel bad. No one upgrades Consecrate to provide 10% more DPS or Cower enemies but LOSES the ability for it to tick a heal etc.
On another note Throw the boom has some issues wherein the graphic for it seems to go for a longer range but is not effective at longer ranges. Ie Knight's challenge actually works at max range but Throw the Boom does not.
Solution: These should be TWO separate abilities that share a cooldown. Or if we want to go above and beyond just be two seperate abilities entirely if it is not possible for them to share a cooldown
I would think it would be easy (and reasonable) to have both versions and put both on your hot bar.
Guntango
Well-known member
You can pull that one mob off with intim, but I wouldn’t say no to a couple more buttons.
DeadAlready
Member
Because the damage of all Epic Strike spells except Dragon Breath and Drifting Lotus[which is bugged] are lower than many heroic spells, some of which have maximum caster level 25. Dragon Breath is currently (3.5+10)*2)*50 [caster level 50] on a level 32 white-dragonborn cold druid in Water Elemental form holding Reflection of Wave. That's significantly overtuned. But an Epic Strike dealing significantly less damage than Acid Well is too far in the other direction.
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DeadAlready
Member
This x100
rabidfox
The People's Champion
Please put spell/ranged threat reduction as in option in the shiradi tree. It's a huge issue for many ranged builds that we can't control threat the way other playstyles can. Imbues combo'd with procs from the mantle are just hate magnets that we currently can't reduce enough with gear/builds even on low damage builds. It's been an issue ever since imbues were added.
Ellisaria
Well-known member
This, right here. More threat options in a game where tanking/aggro is wonky and the tools that *should* work don't/don't always work, please.
Viking707
Member
I wanted to give it a few days before I posted here to let my anger subside. I'm not entirely there, but I will try to share my thoughts as politely as I can:
I have been playing DDO since the game was three months old. I run a small family (& real-life friends) guild. Most of our guild are casual players. A few of us are more serious about it, but we all have one thing in common: We love the healing ticks provided by the angel tree mantle. (available at level 23). Please note that this is not a crutch. This is a measured decision to forgo the benefits of other class mantles, and the benefits they offer, to avoid the frustration of constant button pushing to self-heal that DDO requires to play at a competitive level. In other words, the nerfing of "holy mantle" will break every build on my characters and most of my guild.
This is unacceptable.
I really don't care if it's "not working as intended" or the Devs consider it overpowered. It's not. It just replaces button pushing. It also makes an overly complex game (how many crafting systems do we have?) much easier to play for casual, over 40 years of age, non "high twitch" players. In other words, it makes the game fun instead of tedious.
If this nerf survives, the majority (casual players) of my guild will simply quit playing. Three of us will remain and adjust, but probably in ways you haven't anticipated. Let me explain further......
I have spent so much money on this game (either for myself or helping family members) that I've probably single handily funded at least one developer's 401(k). I'm not kidding. This is a major investment of discretionary spending that I have been willing to make because I enjoy the game so much. If the game changes in a way that my enjoyment turns to tedium, I will stop spending money on it. No more Otto boxes. No more "Tenser" boxes. No more coffers. No more cosmetics. No more augments from the DDO store. No more Astral shards. No more expansions. Nothing except the recurring charges of maintaining my three VIP accounts. That's it.
This is not intended as a threat or a boycott. I just think it's important to explain the unintended consequences to the Devs. At the end of the day, this is a business. You provide hours of joy and entertainment in exchange for us to financially invest in the experience. If you diminish our experience, it also diminishes your revenue. Pay attention to your casual players. We pay the bills.
If you want to reduce the ticks, fine. Just don't make us push a bunch of freaking buttons to self-heal. How hard is that?
I have been playing DDO since the game was three months old. I run a small family (& real-life friends) guild. Most of our guild are casual players. A few of us are more serious about it, but we all have one thing in common: We love the healing ticks provided by the angel tree mantle. (available at level 23). Please note that this is not a crutch. This is a measured decision to forgo the benefits of other class mantles, and the benefits they offer, to avoid the frustration of constant button pushing to self-heal that DDO requires to play at a competitive level. In other words, the nerfing of "holy mantle" will break every build on my characters and most of my guild.
This is unacceptable.
I really don't care if it's "not working as intended" or the Devs consider it overpowered. It's not. It just replaces button pushing. It also makes an overly complex game (how many crafting systems do we have?) much easier to play for casual, over 40 years of age, non "high twitch" players. In other words, it makes the game fun instead of tedious.
If this nerf survives, the majority (casual players) of my guild will simply quit playing. Three of us will remain and adjust, but probably in ways you haven't anticipated. Let me explain further......
I have spent so much money on this game (either for myself or helping family members) that I've probably single handily funded at least one developer's 401(k). I'm not kidding. This is a major investment of discretionary spending that I have been willing to make because I enjoy the game so much. If the game changes in a way that my enjoyment turns to tedium, I will stop spending money on it. No more Otto boxes. No more "Tenser" boxes. No more coffers. No more cosmetics. No more augments from the DDO store. No more Astral shards. No more expansions. Nothing except the recurring charges of maintaining my three VIP accounts. That's it.
This is not intended as a threat or a boycott. I just think it's important to explain the unintended consequences to the Devs. At the end of the day, this is a business. You provide hours of joy and entertainment in exchange for us to financially invest in the experience. If you diminish our experience, it also diminishes your revenue. Pay attention to your casual players. We pay the bills.
If you want to reduce the ticks, fine. Just don't make us push a bunch of freaking buttons to self-heal. How hard is that?
Guntango
Well-known member
One word: HOTS
Reifee - Orien
Well-known member
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
I mean, despite adjustments, the game keeps getting easier (power creep!)
My only guess as to why they are getting rid of the passive heal is "dominant strategy". How easy do you think it would be for a full party of adventurers with at least 3 EA heals to be killed? I used the mantle on my Sacred Fist Paladin whom was specc'ed into Sacred Defender. He NEVER was at risk of dying as soon as he hit 23.
Reifee - Orien
Well-known member
I think 1600 Posts later Its pretty clear that a strong portion of the community is unhappy with the Proposed changes.
If the current stated changes go in, we the players will suffer. How? Less people spending less money means the owners will invest or reinvest less. Its a vicious downward cycle. I'm fairly certain this will HIT the bottom dollar lines pretty signifantly.
This is a bit of a misstep, and a poorly thought out process.
If you upgrade the characters and the vision is for 40, you will have power creep. Everquest, Wow, Aion etc all have done it successfully. Major nerfs are not always needed, nor is Crippling.
Most games i Know have passive healing like the EA destiny tree. If its an issue reduce it to some degree.
Instead of promoting the game, and pushing for retension of the members there are some sections of the dev team that simply just don't get economics.
We are all pretty vocal not because of just personal losses but most of us are successful in our own work paths and can seem the train wreck coming yet again.
Simple Suggestions
EA tree
- Adjust healing down 20-30%. Reassess if this is satisfactory
- Removing the ability is just a poor choice. The suggested replacement is not satisfactory.
Carrion Swarm
- Leave this alone, its subpar. If there is an issue with abuse, have it have some type of range requirement (like an aura check) If someone is kiting and abusing it, or using the mechanics to do things it is not intended for, ban the player.
Dragons Breath
- Currently Its MC50 with 2d6+20. My max hit with this is around 32k Purple damage. Non purple this is around 15-20k. This is with 1220 Fire spell power, 63% crit rate and 95 Spell crit modifer as a sorcerer. Nerfing this by the changes will make it be off my rotation. Its not worth it. Other spells do similar dmg.
* recommend an actual rebalancing of damage. Its pretty simple I've seen the answers various times.
1d6+28 For single target
1d6+7 (MCL20) for multi target Each Tree should have a T5 that upgrades it to 1d6+10 (MCL25) (acid well does 1d6+18 MCL20)
Its annoying that something has to be totally destroyed to balance it. Its been this way for years, So many folks have used it, the newer folks will not be able too.
If the current stated changes go in, we the players will suffer. How? Less people spending less money means the owners will invest or reinvest less. Its a vicious downward cycle. I'm fairly certain this will HIT the bottom dollar lines pretty signifantly.
This is a bit of a misstep, and a poorly thought out process.
If you upgrade the characters and the vision is for 40, you will have power creep. Everquest, Wow, Aion etc all have done it successfully. Major nerfs are not always needed, nor is Crippling.
Most games i Know have passive healing like the EA destiny tree. If its an issue reduce it to some degree.
Instead of promoting the game, and pushing for retension of the members there are some sections of the dev team that simply just don't get economics.
We are all pretty vocal not because of just personal losses but most of us are successful in our own work paths and can seem the train wreck coming yet again.
Simple Suggestions
EA tree
- Adjust healing down 20-30%. Reassess if this is satisfactory
- Removing the ability is just a poor choice. The suggested replacement is not satisfactory.
Carrion Swarm
- Leave this alone, its subpar. If there is an issue with abuse, have it have some type of range requirement (like an aura check) If someone is kiting and abusing it, or using the mechanics to do things it is not intended for, ban the player.
Dragons Breath
- Currently Its MC50 with 2d6+20. My max hit with this is around 32k Purple damage. Non purple this is around 15-20k. This is with 1220 Fire spell power, 63% crit rate and 95 Spell crit modifer as a sorcerer. Nerfing this by the changes will make it be off my rotation. Its not worth it. Other spells do similar dmg.
* recommend an actual rebalancing of damage. Its pretty simple I've seen the answers various times.
1d6+28 For single target
1d6+7 (MCL20) for multi target Each Tree should have a T5 that upgrades it to 1d6+10 (MCL25) (acid well does 1d6+18 MCL20)
Its annoying that something has to be totally destroyed to balance it. Its been this way for years, So many folks have used it, the newer folks will not be able too.
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