14 Pal/X Dlord vs. Pure Dlord vs. Pure Paladin

[Mordenkainen]

Which setup has the greatest power level? (in terms of offense/defense combined)

 

[droid327]

Just in terms of pure numbers? Probably Welf Paladin since you get +75 MP with full BP stacks

Split gives that up to gain +1 mult and solid CC, but the CC is hard to quantify, it depends what content you're running and how good you are at landing it. Also lets you go STR based, which has a higher ceiling than CHA. Split is probably more effective since you have the CC option, but that's different than being more powerful.

Pure Dlord gives up +1 range and 10% Dstrike (Zeal) to get 10 MP (+25 in Cores -15 Pal buff) and the IK capstone, which again is highly situational and dependent on your DCs. Losing 30/60 Hamp is probably noticeable too, defensively.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Just in terms of pure numbers? Probably Welf Paladin since you get +75 MP with full BP stacks

Split gives that up to gain +1 mult and solid CC, but the CC is hard to quantify, it depends what content you're running and how good you are at landing it. Also lets you go STR based, which has a higher ceiling than CHA. Split is probably more effective since you have the CC option, but that's different than being more powerful.

Pure Dlord gives up +1 range and 10% Dstrike (Zeal) to get 10 MP (+25 in Cores -15 Pal buff) and the IK capstone, which again is highly situational and dependent on your DCs. Losing 30/60 Hamp is probably noticeable too, defensively.

Also your entire suite of CC's cooldowns get reduced by -33%.I found this to be HUGE.

As Pure Dlord would I fare better as STR based or CHA based? Especially if I go PDK which gets some gnarly pluses to tactics. Also,I think I can cram in colour spray from Feydark illusionist.

 

[Sheikra]

Man I thought you were soloing R8+ with your melee builds, why you asking us for advice?

 

[Mordenkainen]

Man I thought you were soloing R8+ with your melee builds, why you asking us for advice?

Not too familiar with Dlord and don't have too much time to test it all out as of yet.

 

[Lagin]

too many factors not addressed in your *poll*.

I am a melee addict. From Ranger Tempest to Kensai to S&B (ftr & pally) and my fav THF grt swd dwarf str "tree-trunk" build. DL is cool for another strength based "tactical" option. I leaned towards a DL/FTR for straight up dps. (Trips & stuns can and do kill on crits)
As to anything over R5-ish I'd go pure pally though. IMHO
Leet & low reapers, it's more about what you have most fun with.

as always with new races/classes, DDO's history shows a nerf not long after release. So go enjoy Roar in it's current state while you can.

 

[Mordenkainen]

too many factors not addressed in your *poll*.

I am a melee addict. From Ranger Tempest to Kensai to S&B (ftr & pally) and my fav THF grt swd dwarf str "tree-trunk" build. DL is cool for another strength based "tactical" option. I leaned towards a DL/FTR for straight up dps. (Trips & stuns can and do kill on crits)
As to anything over R5-ish I'd go pure pally though. IMHO
Leet & low reapers, it's more about what you have most fun with.

as always with new races/classes, DDO's history shows a nerf not long after release. So go enjoy Roar in it's current state while you can.

Well I'm considering going either or actually (specifically because I know 100% Dlord will get nerfed in the coming months).

What is the strongest build currently then for a pure Paladin (if you have one)? Any links or suggestions? Thank you.

 

[TavernBrawler]

Devs have made it clear that they want to encourage people "experiment" and enjoy variety of "builds" - which means multi-class will outright overperform over a pure build (except for a DC wiz perhaps), even at the cost of core D&D rules.
So the correct answer for your question is: 14pal/DL. I don't even have to test to say that. Have fun.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Devs have made it clear that they want to encourage people "experiment" and enjoy variety of "builds" - which means multi-class will outright overperform over a pure build (except for a DC wiz perhaps), even at the cost of core D&D rules.
So the correct answer for your question is: 14pal/DL. I don't even have to test to say that. Have fun.

Okay... any builds for 14 pal/DL? Thanks.

 

[Hireling]

A lot depends on how many and which Past Lives you have.

But generally a well built multi-class will outperform a pure build.
Notable exceptions are full on casters because of spell levels/spell pen etc etc.

If you don't know how to build, a Pure Paladin will be tough and can get through most content and be useful.
If you don't know how to build...a multi-class can be a nightmare and broken. Like people who don't realize certain buffs don't stack or that battle-trances lock each other out. Or sub-optimally take certain classes at the "not best" spot. Rogue for example is best taken at level 1 for skill point purposes etc.

If you DO know what you are doing, a Pure Paladin will still be tough, but has a defined ceiling (as do most pure melee builds).
If you DO know what you are doing a multi-class has a higher ceiling.

TLDR:
Pure builds have a higher floor and lower ceiling than multi-class builds.

I am partial to pure builds, but I see that multi-class when done well generally outperform pure builds.

 

[Mordenkainen]

A lot depends on how many and which Past Lives you have.

But generally a well built multi-class will outperform a pure build.
Notable exceptions are full on casters because of spell levels/spell pen etc etc.

If you don't know how to build, a Pure Paladin will be tough and can get through most content and be useful.
If you don't know how to build...a multi-class can be a nightmare and broken. Like people who don't realize certain buffs don't stack or that battle-trances lock each other out. Or sub-optimally take certain classes at the "not best" spot. Rogue for example is best taken at level 1 for skill point purposes etc.

If you DO know what you are doing, a Pure Paladin will still be tough, but has a defined ceiling (as do most pure melee builds).
If you DO know what you are doing a multi-class has a higher ceiling.

TLDR:
Pure builds have a higher floor and lower ceiling than multi-class builds.

I am partial to pure builds, but I see that multi-class when done well generally outperform pure builds.

Okaaaay... so any Builds ? Pure/Multi/non pure/Dirty or what have you?

Assume I have access to almost all gear and the vast majority of PL's and what not.

In fact, 1 pure Paladin and one DL/Pal mix would be my request. I have a pure DL already.

 

[Hireling]

I'd then request help in:
Character Classes>>>multi class builds.

A lot of great builders here. If your goal is to CC, I generally think STR>CHR.
Grab DM from KotC. I think it's an incredible DD tree myself.
STR is better than CHR because often STR has deadly, accuracy, seeker, combat Mastery on it...
While CHR has stuff like bonus MP, Spell Focus, and potency.

Just is easier to build for STR. But you don't have to dump Stat either though. Start at a 14 at least in STR or CHR and max the other. I assume you have a +8 Universal Stat tome.

If later you are struggling to fit in a Stat, just Cannith Craft a Stat item.

At end game if you spend time there...you'll need to gear tetris to maximize all that.

I generally don't spend time at end game unless I am support (bard, Cleric or an arty).

My server Ghallanda has really nice people and we don't kick people for not being perfect.

 

[Scrag]

PDK dlords are all about max cha, str at max str (in relation to cha, after temp buffs) -1, if you can get that exact. That lets you doubledown on tactics from pdk cha weapons, cha trance, and buffed str for max sunder.

I run 118 for sunder, and +++ more for dire charge. I am a cc driven "tank". People for some reason think dlords can't tank, but I do fine all the way to r8, with heals, on the build. I did take shield feat though and all the way up to perfect shield mastery, as well as thf -> perfect thf.

It is a bit of a cheat; I have ignition and colossus. I do not think this would work quite as well under any other circumstances.

I would have to look carefully at a dlord split that isn't pdk. 15 pally, 5 dlord likely. My next dlord life though will be barb/dlord. I think 4 or 6 barb (dont remeber which), and the rest dlord. Straight sunder nonsense.

 

[droid327]

Also your entire suite of CC's cooldowns get reduced by -33%.I found this to be HUGE.

As Pure Dlord would I fare better as STR based or CHA based? Especially if I go PDK which gets some gnarly pluses to tactics. Also,I think I can cram in colour spray from Feydark illusionist.

Yeah pure Dlord is much more tailored towards being a melee Tactics CC than being a melee DPS

STR is better overall. Like I mentioned to you I think in another thread, dumping STR for CHA on a PDK means you're trading base DC (at 100% mod) for bonus DC (at 33% mod), and that's obviously a bad move. If you can keep both STR and CHA high, then yeah you'll get really good Tactics DC, but that kind of MAD is not really practical at endgame, and I'm not sure its not overkill right now too.

What is the strongest build currently then for a pure Paladin (if you have one)? Any links or suggestions? Thank you.

Probably Welf, CHA>CON, 41 KotC, T4 Racial for Favored Falch, 7 Fey splash VKF splash Sac Def with the rest depending on RAP.

Okay... any builds for 14 pal/DL? Thanks.

Still Welf, STR>CON, T5 DL T4 KotC, splashes as above depending on RAP. Favored is more optional, it just offers some +dam/hit and the ability to use the Light imbue over the DL Elemental one - if you have full RAP though then its cheap enough.

And you want a 15/5 not a 14/6...you want Zeal over DL Core 3

Or maybe if you really want to go crazy 14 Fist/5 Red DL/1 Monk, take Fire Stance for another +1/19-20 and lock into using Mirana at cap lol...you can Sunder fire-immunes

 

[Mordenkainen]

Yeah pure Dlord is much more tailored towards being a melee Tactics CC than being a melee DPS

STR is better overall. Like I mentioned to you I think in another thread, dumping STR for CHA on a PDK means you're trading base DC (at 100% mod) for bonus DC (at 33% mod), and that's obviously a bad move. If you can keep both STR and CHA high, then yeah you'll get really good Tactics DC, but that kind of MAD is not really practical at endgame, and I'm not sure its not overkill right now too.



Probably Welf, CHA>CON, 41 KotC, T4 Racial for Favored Falch, 7 Fey splash VKF splash Sac Def with the rest depending on RAP.



Still Welf, STR>CON, T5 DL T4 KotC, splashes as above depending on RAP. Favored is more optional, it just offers some +dam/hit and the ability to use the Light imbue over the DL Elemental one - if you have full RAP though then its cheap enough.

And you want a 15/5 not a 14/6...you want Zeal over DL Core 3

Or maybe if you really want to go crazy 14 Fist/5 Red DL/1 Monk, take Fire Stance for another +1/19-20 and lock into using Mirana at cap lol...you can Sunder fire-immunes

Interesting and thank you. This is excellent.

I'm also interested if you can build a PDK pure Dragonlord, what would that look like? and more importantly what would the leveling gear look like?

 

[PraetorPlato]

Interesting and thank you. This is excellent.

I'm also interested if you can build a PDK pure Dragonlord, what would that look like? and more importantly what would the leveling gear look like?

Levelling gear can be the same for any melee—fey belt, hat, cloak, bracers, armor till 15, then POTF 3 piece+celestial ruby and sapphire ring to cap is what I normally run. Choose weapon as the best expanded crit weapon you can use, or barovian XYZ. Works fine up to LE sagas.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Levelling gear can be the same for any melee—fey belt, hat, cloak, bracers, armor till 15, then POTF 3 piece+celestial ruby and sapphire ring to cap is what I normally run. Choose weapon as the best expanded crit weapon you can use, or barovian XYZ. Works fine up to LE sagas.

Darn Feywild gear.. never seems to get old.

 

[droid327]

Interesting and thank you. This is excellent.

I'm also interested if you can build a PDK pure Dragonlord, what would that look like? and more importantly what would the leveling gear look like?

CHA>STR = CHA-1>CON, locked into Greatsword though so -2 range compared to a Falchion build. And yeah good Tactics DC, but keep in mind you wont be able to get CHA or STR as high on a MAD build as you could get either on a single-stat build.

If you can maintain...what, 100 STR on a pure STR build? That's +45 mod, so +67 with STR trance

On a MAD build you might only maintain like, estimating, 81/80, for a +35 mod, with Trance and CKT adding another 5/6 mod for +64

You could go CHA and dump STR, but standard Tactics are all still STR based. Your CHA skills would be +45 mod * 11/6 = 82, but if your dumped STR was only like 60, then your STR skills would be 25 + (45 * 5/6) = 62

It really depends what stats you think you actually hit...the margin is pretty close in a lot of cases

leveling gear is SOS->eSOS and then w/e bc SOS

 

[SpartanKiller13]

"Most powerful" is a wild ask lol.

Paladin has the most utility for sure (and heals, ofc). DLord has better CC, and self-cleanse from Second Wind may or may not be better than Pally's insane saves.

15/5 Mix probably has best endgame DPS (not locked WElf, and 14-20/x4 falchion or 14-20/x5 Fellblade etc) but definitely worse at everything else.
I agree with Droid, I don't think PDK Cha-max is the way to go. My current build I'm trying SWF longswords (since I haven't done that ever) and plan on using rage (from FotW, +13 Str given HOrc) and Divine Might with Cha as a secondary stat. I'm estimating 112 Str and 60 Cha, FWIW. Blood Feast & Unquenchable Rage seemed good to me, since it's only marginally better than just dropping Rage and using Str trance (at 2x SWF, THF with 2.5x has a slightly bigger benefit to Cha trance).

I can certainly say while leveling the Dragon Roar is pretty great. I've been leveling with T5 KotC for more AoE (since SWF lacks that). Pure DLord probably is nuts with the amount of tactics being thrown around.

Pure Pally is probably the most well-rounded. 91 AP can even get you a 41/31/8 split netting you the 10% HP from C5 while having full KotC and still grabbing Haste Boost (and favored Falchions). Str-max with +6 from Defender Stance works fine as well.

Pure Dlord gives up +1 range and 10% Dstrike (Zeal) to get 10 MP (+25 in Cores -15 Pal buff) and the IK capstone, which again is highly situational and dependent on your DCs. Losing 30/60 Hamp is probably noticeable too, defensively.

Sanctified Fervor 5-piece swap gives Pally +25 MP (or +20 for the split) if you're willing to swap every minute, but YMMV on valuing that.

 

[Mordenkainen]

"Most powerful" is a wild ask lol.

Paladin has the most utility for sure (and heals, ofc). DLord has better CC, and self-cleanse from Second Wind may or may not be better than Pally's insane saves.

15/5 Mix probably has best endgame DPS (not locked WElf, and 14-20/x4 falchion or 14-20/x5 Fellblade etc) but definitely worse at everything else.
I agree with Droid, I don't think PDK Cha-max is the way to go. My current build I'm trying SWF longswords (since I haven't done that ever) and plan on using rage (from FotW, +13 Str given HOrc) and Divine Might with Cha as a secondary stat. I'm estimating 112 Str and 60 Cha, FWIW. Blood Feast & Unquenchable Rage seemed good to me, since it's only marginally better than just dropping Rage and using Str trance (at 2x SWF, THF with 2.5x has a slightly bigger benefit to Cha trance).

I can certainly say while leveling the Dragon Roar is pretty great. I've been leveling with T5 KotC for more AoE (since SWF lacks that). Pure DLord probably is nuts with the amount of tactics being thrown around.

Pure Pally is probably the most well-rounded. 91 AP can even get you a 41/31/8 split netting you the 10% HP from C5 while having full KotC and still grabbing Haste Boost (and favored Falchions). Str-max with +6 from Defender Stance works fine as well.

Sanctified Fervor 5-piece swap gives Pally +25 MP (or +20 for the split) if you're willing to swap every minute, but YMMV on valuing that.

So are you just dropping all the trances (STR or CHA) and opting to STR max?

I feel like you can get a balance maybe as CHA as secondary and going CHA trance. I wonder what the mathmatical sweet spot is between STR and CHA. Hmm...