SpartanKiller13
Well-known member
Without short-term boosts it's closer than I'd have expected, but still ahead and you get the rage utility (Blood Feast, Unquenchable Rage) which I think makes up for losing your (generally poor) spellcasting.
14 Pal/X Dlord vs. Pure Dlord vs. Pure Paladin
- Thread starter Mordenkainen
- Start date
droid327
Well-known member
Not everything, no
For CHA builds, Rage would only give you a bonus to your Tactics DC. It wouldn't boost your stat-to-dmg number like it would on STR builds, which is significant
Plus you might not be able to use all the bonuses available to Raging on a STR build, if it would end up putting you higher than you can keep your CHA
15/5 with Silvanus Maul would be 15-20/x4, but yeah still falls a little short unless you could really leverage the new Slice of Life maul 4-piece set somehow...
SpartanKiller13
Well-known member
Feels hard to not use Dino Bone, and then Falchion just wins x.x
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
Yeah, STR build is superior. I'm doing these numbers again, the real ceiling is that my STR needs to stay below my CHA in order for this setup to work.
And 14 PAL/6 DLord using THF is absolute top notch DPS.
Could anyone here do me a solid and give me a detail Build of a 14 PAL/6 DLord... something I can take into endgame Reaper and not get kicked.
Thank you in advance.
And 14 PAL/6 DLord using THF is absolute top notch DPS.
Could anyone here do me a solid and give me a detail Build of a 14 PAL/6 DLord... something I can take into endgame Reaper and not get kicked.
Thank you in advance.
droid327
Well-known member
Again, the proper split is 15/5
6 dlord gets you core 3 and a feat you don't really need. 15 pal gets you a second L4 spell after holy sword, which is zeal for 10% dstrike
songswrath
Well-known member
He 100% right only time you go 14 pally is if doing s.f. and dipping 1 monk the extra CRT on 19/20 makes it worth it. But this is a more feat hungry build and rocks with two weapons and dagger tree dip
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
OK.
A 15/5 build then?
A 15/5 build then?
JustHavingFunBro
Well-known member
Why take 5 DL? What do you gain above 4? Why take tier 5 DL tree as a paladin?
The only reason I see taking 4 is for Displacement at tier 4. But if you're soloing r8 that is useless. I have played 2 past lives of DL and I don't get why you would use them for anything outside of CC/free feats like a fighter. They are far less damage than a Barb. So multiclassing doesn't make too much sense, unless you are established enough to get that CC off in higher reaper. If you are just looking to get a past life, then just go pure Paladin. Learn the class and make your own tweaks based off your playstyle and needs. Who cares about high reaper if you're just grinding lives?
I am just asking questions. I have a lot to learn, so I am just curious on your reasoning.
The only reason I see taking 4 is for Displacement at tier 4. But if you're soloing r8 that is useless. I have played 2 past lives of DL and I don't get why you would use them for anything outside of CC/free feats like a fighter. They are far less damage than a Barb. So multiclassing doesn't make too much sense, unless you are established enough to get that CC off in higher reaper. If you are just looking to get a past life, then just go pure Paladin. Learn the class and make your own tweaks based off your playstyle and needs. Who cares about high reaper if you're just grinding lives?
I am just asking questions. I have a lot to learn, so I am just curious on your reasoning.
SpartanKiller13
Well-known member
15/5 Pally/Dlord (don't take DLord 6)
Start at least like 15 Str or something so you can take THF line (giving THF suggestion here since I think it's the most well-rounded).
Start Pally 2 > DLord 3 > Pally 15 > DLord 5
Get LoH early, then get Dragon Roar + Haste Boost, then finish out Pally (HSword + Zeal), then take DL for endgame.
Level with KotC since the T5 is really good, but whenever you're happy with your AOE can swap to T5 DLord.
Heroic: THF x3, Power Attack (take Precision if not raging), Improved Crit:Slashing.
Epics: Overwhelming Critical, fill, Epic Damage Reduction, fill.
Destiny: Perfect THF, Doublestrike, Embodiment of Law (take Harbinger if doing T5 FotW), Deific Warding
Legendary: Arborea
DL feat: Thraxata's Instinct
Leftover feats can grab Tough/ETough, Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack/WWA, WFocus/WSpec, Child of Faith line, w/e ya feel like.
Use like a Ghostly Falchion > SoS >ESoS
Enhancements go KotC while leveling (for cleaves, T5, etc), and use the Imbue if you're using a Favored Weapon.
DL like 36ish points, full T5. Ravager is good for 6 AP if raging (Power Attack line), VKF is good to sink 11/21 AP in if you have spare and want to get some Doublestrike, racial tree (like I'm doing 20 AP Horc). If not raging/raiding, Improved Defender stance for +6 Str/Con and +25 PRR/MRR is pretty great, but the +150% threat is no-go for raiding.
ED-wise, depends on your goals and ED points. Can T5 LD with T4 Fury, using Action Hero + Adrenaline stuff. If Favored can T5 DC, T4 Fury. Can just T5 Fury, and use like LD mantle or something. Shadowdancer 3rd tree usually, to get -30% threat & Evasion (Pally boosted saves = super Reflex, unless you're doing no-Rage line using Improved Defender stance or soemthing). Adrenaline + Boulder's Might (or F&F if like longswords) for big damage, Dire Charge or Cower Before Me if you need additional CC.
T5 DL gives +2 crit multiplier, which is really strong; particularly with Falchions, which are generally the best THF endgame weapons currently (a large portion of endgame physical damage is from crits, and they have a great crit profile). 15/5 split also gets Holy Sword from Pally, so you have +1 range and +2 multiplier which is very very good. Also 10% Doublestrike, +35 MP, +15 PRR/MRR, and other side perks like Lay on Hands and Divine Grace from Paladin.
Displacement is useful for soloing R8, it still gives ~20% miss chance (concealment reduction caps at -30%).
Going pure Barb also is pretty good, T5 Frenzied Berserker has the same +2 Crit multiplier; that build has a lot of merit, as do 18/x Barbarian builds. But Paladin has a lot of free goodies, and DL adds some neat stuff like Dragon roar and a native trance to it (so you're not like 8 AP into Harper like my last Barbarian was).
droid327
Well-known member
T5 also lets you Cower things with your Dragon Roar, not just Daze them, which lets you apply Helpless damage bonus for the full duration. It also boost your Helpless damage. And you can use Roar (and other Tactics) 33% faster. Wings with a free Haste boost are also very handy for quick leveling, though you might drop them at 20 to meet your AP needs in other trees.
Welf, STR>CON>CHA. Dlord at 1-2-3-8-12. Sov Host. THFx3, Power Attack (or Precision for non-Rage), IC: Slash, Stunning Blow, Dodge/Mob, DL Aura: Tactics, Tac Training (or WWA).
Epics: OC, Dstrike, Shield Mast (for the last 25% HP), Crush Weak, Epic DR, PTHF, Epic Reflex, Arborea, Deific Warding
36 DL (T5s), 35 KOTC (T4s), rest Rav (Rage) or Sac Def (non-Rage). With full RAP can take Falchion Favored in Welf with STR bonuses.
I'd go T5 LD T4 Fury since you seem enamored with Tactics, since that'll upgrade you to Improved Trip and make it a Helpless attack, and Dire Charge for even more Tactics-based CC. Rest in US or Mach or EA, depending how much DP you have
songswrath
Well-known member
dl tier 5 is why you need 5 lvl of dl
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
So basically.. it's a Paladin with a finely prepared dash of DLord salt and paprika.
songswrath
Well-known member
it's pally with the best cc in game right now that adds helpless damage tho a pure kotc pally will out dps just by a hair ( someone did the math numbers not me ). plus wings
Sarlona Raiding
Well-known member
T5 KOTC is really good for just flat-out killing stuff with THF. Greater color spray does work for a cha paladin at end game with just a +6 illusion dc augment and +2 illusion augment and maxing cha, but you are missing alot of DCs from feats, ed and caster gear like insightful, artifact and sacred so it's not as good as a dragonlord using tactics and breath.
My experience with Dragonlord is very positive, but the one negative is that the strength trance recharge process isn't always reliable which means you will often have to hit shrines to get charges back. On the other hand divine might is just always there with no recharge issues.
From my perspective the only reason to multiclass paladin into dragonlord is because you want both the tactics and the +2 multiplier which means you will be using a high threat range weapon. This means wood elf falchion or rapier or using scimitar with divine crusader. It's basically the same idea as going deepwood stalker core 4, dragonlord T5, vkf T4 kukris or swashbuckling with handaxes.
But unfortunately you are losing the tactical fighter feats which is worth +20 for the 4 feats and you lose another 3-4 from aura depending on your split which means all the other +1s from gear, pastlifes, etc. are much more important compared to a build with more dragonlord levels.
As always, what content you run, your playstyle and who you run with are such important variables that if often trumps all the other arguments about what build is best.
My experience with Dragonlord is very positive, but the one negative is that the strength trance recharge process isn't always reliable which means you will often have to hit shrines to get charges back. On the other hand divine might is just always there with no recharge issues.
From my perspective the only reason to multiclass paladin into dragonlord is because you want both the tactics and the +2 multiplier which means you will be using a high threat range weapon. This means wood elf falchion or rapier or using scimitar with divine crusader. It's basically the same idea as going deepwood stalker core 4, dragonlord T5, vkf T4 kukris or swashbuckling with handaxes.
But unfortunately you are losing the tactical fighter feats which is worth +20 for the 4 feats and you lose another 3-4 from aura depending on your split which means all the other +1s from gear, pastlifes, etc. are much more important compared to a build with more dragonlord levels.
As always, what content you run, your playstyle and who you run with are such important variables that if often trumps all the other arguments about what build is best.
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
As an aside. I have always been told T5 KoTC is crazy DPS. Compared to say Frenzied Berserker Barb THF (which I use as a benchmark) is it more or less DPS?
Sarlona Raiding
Well-known member
The trees are more than just straight-up dps. Both are solid, but very different. Divine retribution obliterates mobs up to legendary and even at legendary works really well. Even if you don't have the DCs for instakill chaining the aoe cleaves clears mobs fast in legendary.
Censure Outsiders works on reapers which I find helpful. Ascendancy is situational, but amazing against evil enemies.
The problem with paladin has always been the drop-off in dps against non-evil enemies, but so many enemies are evil.
Frenzied Bezerker is more of a niche tree. I don't see ever choosing it for swashbuckling with handaxes with dragonlord available.
The combination of accelerated metabolism with fury, blood tribute and possibly bard buff healing makes frenzied berzerker really solid for soloing with passive healing, but the trade-off is losing raging blows. Much like dragonlord you need to go with a high crit range weapon like falchion to take advantage of the +2 crit multiplier.
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
Man, I feel like I should roll a Pure Paladin to completely appreciate Paladin before I try to do some kind of mix.
What's the "meta" pure Paladin THF build? I want to test the full power of this "Divine Retribution" I keep incessently hearing about.
I did a pure paladin. I had two flavors, a thf with a greatsword (that failed, outburst is horrible if you dont have immunity stripping) and a tankish w/ bsword/shield which did great.
Pure pally, definitely 2 thumbs up.
Sarlona Raiding
Well-known member
It really depends on your playstyle, who you run with and what difficulty you want to run.
I find pure paladin works best with KOTC tier 5 and capstone. I dip into vistani for undead hunter, mist stalker, deflect arrows. If you go charisma based you will want to spend a minimum of 7 in feydark illusionist unless you use a heart ot go pdk. I didn't like vanguard much, I just found there are better tanky builds that clear faster.
Beyond that you need to customize it for your playstyle. Going tier 4 falconry gives you helpless damage boost which alot of people like because it boosts kill count. You can dip into other trees to boost your favored enemy #s.
If you want to solo I wouldn't understimate bladeforged. The racial reconstruct + lay on hands + repair amp is a poweful combo that lets you heal your way through alot of situations up to about R6. After that it drops off fast and can be a negative in a group because of the healing debuff machines get. Aasimar is a solid choice for a combo of soloing and group play. You get some healing but are more healer-friendly. Also, unyielding sovereignty is one of the best cheat codes in the game to get you out of a potentially fatal situation. You can get that with Aasimar, human, dragonborn which are all great choices, but not with Bladeforged.
If you dip into sacred defender with stance just be sure to turn it off in a group with a tank. You don't want to be the guy turning the boss. But at a minimum I would dip into it for the extra lay on hands.
I found greater color spray worked good enough in legendary with a minimum investment it was worth keeping for a few extra points, but I had alot of past lifes and reaper points on that character. It should work very well up to cap if you just craft illusion/insightful illusion goggles and max out cha.
Good luck, I think you will have fun with pure paladin.
Mordenkainen
Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
Ugghhh I forgot Paladins need to stick with greatswords rtc. terribad. Man, this game...
Problem with shields and Vanguard is you need to split the attributes (shields go off STR for atk/Dam) and can't just dump everything into CHA for RIDONK saves and crazy DC's.
Although, not sure what your build was..