A story about tiered progression and big city server people

[Lori]

The servers are down for maintenance and something is bugging me.
Something that happened yesterday, on Orien.
Orien, compared to others, might be called the New York or rather the Rio de Janeiro of DDO.
A big server with many players. As such, the single person doesn't count as much as on small servers or towns where everyone knows each other and there's a sense of community.

What happened yesterday is bugging me, because if I was in that person's position I'd be very disappointed.
In fact, the other day I said I forgot to pick up a quest and no one bothered to press the share button and I had to go back and pick it up.
The level of motivation to remain in that group of egomaniacs was -> 0.
But that's not what this is about, however it seems symptomatic for Orien nowadays.

Yesterday I was running epic sentinels of stormreach and some pally joined without a word and then a cleric who said hi.
On we went and done Lords of Dust series as well as King's Forest, DDTW and Belly.
The cleric had to go afk and was afking Belly, returned what it was done but I guess didn't know that we already went to do the Drow quests, or Houses as he called it.

The whole deal about having to do ES1 to do ES2 to do ES3 is complete ********, as are other need to do story arc quests, probably most prominent example is Sharn1+2.

Anyhow he was getting to us, I told the group to wait, but they didn't wait. Someone finished the quest despite being told to wait. I didn't see who it was.
Well we continued to do the other 2 and now it was time to repeat the 1st one real quick.
Of course no one wants to repeat a quest they just did, because it's boring and we've done those quests bazillion of times.
But come on, we were running 3 series of quests together and more, surely those 3 minutes spent in Death Undone wouldn't make such a huge difference?
Everyone either recalled to grab the Portal Opens quest or went to the Portal Opens quest.

I was like, the Cleric, 2nd life, can't do it alone. He needs either a lock opener or a key of opening.
Only 1 German guy offered to help, after Portal Opens.
But after PO it's too late, you need to do all ES2 quests in order, to be able to get Demonweb quests.
I couldn't open lock, I was the group leader in a very uncomfortable situation.
Should I create drama and demand they leave Portal Opens to do the Death Undone quest?
Like they would've listened.
More so because I guy entered and was afk the whole quest.
Should I had left and soloed or rather duoed Death Undone and Portal Opens with the Cleric?
The Cleric left. He didn't create any drama but I felt very bad.
What ******** leave a group member behind like that?
And why do we have to run ES1 to run ES2 to run ES3? Why are those gatekeeping quest mechanics not REMOVED ALREADY!?
Instead even more of those are introduced in Vecna Unleased, despite us protesting that issue!

Of course you can say, "why didn't the Cleric hurry up more?". Sure, it's valid.
However 2nd life, one might assume they're newer to the game.
And they certainly couldn't solo Demonweb.

I told the Cleric he can buy a 24 rogue hireling to unlock the door in Death Undone.
At first he was like "I'm not spending DDO Points for that", but I told him, no no it's from the Epic Hireling vendor.
I felt bad the whole time and still do.

Miserable egomaniacs and antisocial game design.
It is what it is, but it isn't right.

 

[DBZ]

Epics can be opened without 3 trs why who knows

And Lilo can open the doors

 

[PersonMan]

At least in this case, it sounds like a problem with those players more than the flagging system.

 

[The Narc]

We dont run into these problems playing within our permadeath community, but we also arent grinding for xp/min.

 

[Col Kurtz]

the only thing that stops zergers is when the server goes down...

if i'm in content that I can solo.. I'd drop the zerger group and help the Cleric

Luckily, I don't see this style much since the great server exodus to Orion...
...some great players but, if being Great makes you a Bad Person, how does that really reflect your Greatness.

 

[woq]

At least in this case, it sounds like a problem with those players more than the flagging system.

It does sound like a player problem more than a flagging problem. I hope that's not a common occurence in Oriens LFM culture - but a lot of people go fast and don't really pay much attention to chat. Not the worst offense, though can be annoying - especially with stuff like raid loot splitting.

On flagging: it is a rather unfun thing. I kinda get why it exists. However, for a DND world it makes sense to me for parties to get help for later harder phases of an adventure even if they werent there in the beginning. "Ok, we need a bard/tank/healer/cleric for this hard part for (reasons). Oh, he wasn't there to kill a random dude and his pet raptor, so he can't join our group of merry adventures to deal with these forgewraiths" It's just counter to the way the world should work. Like in this case, you can get to the entrance. You just arbitrarily can't enter because a system denies it. Makes no sense. EVERYTHING should be redboxable if you can get to the location as long as someone can open the quest, imo. Would make the game a lot less antisocial and would make more sense in-world too.

tldr: I understand needing to do certain quests to get to a place or even requiring materials to perform a ritual to enable entry (zawabi), but locking out of quests in the same area everyone can access makes no sense and doesn't work to the advantages of the game, imo. Sagas already encourage people to do "everything" enough.

 

[Sarandra]

I had to go back and pick it up

Did you really though?

 

[Lazuli]

And why do we have to run ES1 to run ES2 to run ES3? Why are those gatekeeping quest mechanics not REMOVED ALREADY!?
Instead even more of those are introduced in Vecna Unleased, despite us protesting that issue!

The group was selfish without a doubt. Repeat undeath undone is just over 5 mins. Less if the group splits.

But that quote is really the big problem. Why do devs insist on anti-grouping mechanics? Let's leave story and realism behind, they threw that out the window eons ago. Devs, favor grouping by eliminating all non sense flagging!

 

[Spikkel]

An alternative is that flagging is kept over true incarnations.
If you have flagged once (for the story arc), why do it again and again and again?

This would promote grouping a lot. Besides that if the quest is real fun and pays well, people replay it anyhow, a good example is "The crucible"

 

[Grumpy]

The servers are down for maintenance and something is bugging me.
Something that happened yesterday, on Orien.
Orien, compared to others, might be called the New York or rather the Rio de Janeiro of DDO.
A big server with many players. As such, the single person doesn't count as much as on small servers or towns where everyone knows each other and there's a sense of community.

What happened yesterday is bugging me, because if I was in that person's position I'd be very disappointed.
In fact, the other day I said I forgot to pick up a quest and no one bothered to press the share button and I had to go back and pick it up.
The level of motivation to remain in that group of egomaniacs was -> 0.
But that's not what this is about, however it seems symptomatic for Orien nowadays.

Yesterday I was running epic sentinels of stormreach and some pally joined without a word and then a cleric who said hi.
On we went and done Lords of Dust series as well as King's Forest, DDTW and Belly.
The cleric had to go afk and was afking Belly, returned what it was done but I guess didn't know that we already went to do the Drow quests, or Houses as he called it.

The whole deal about having to do ES1 to do ES2 to do ES3 is complete ********, as are other need to do story arc quests, probably most prominent example is Sharn1+2.

Anyhow he was getting to us, I told the group to wait, but they didn't wait. Someone finished the quest despite being told to wait. I didn't see who it was.
Well we continued to do the other 2 and now it was time to repeat the 1st one real quick.
Of course no one wants to repeat a quest they just did, because it's boring and we've done those quests bazillion of times.
But come on, we were running 3 series of quests together and more, surely those 3 minutes spent in Death Undone wouldn't make such a huge difference?
Everyone either recalled to grab the Portal Opens quest or went to the Portal Opens quest.

I was like, the Cleric, 2nd life, can't do it alone. He needs either a lock opener or a key of opening.
Only 1 German guy offered to help, after Portal Opens.
But after PO it's too late, you need to do all ES2 quests in order, to be able to get Demonweb quests.
I couldn't open lock, I was the group leader in a very uncomfortable situation.
Should I create drama and demand they leave Portal Opens to do the Death Undone quest?
Like they would've listened.
More so because I guy entered and was afk the whole quest.
Should I had left and soloed or rather duoed Death Undone and Portal Opens with the Cleric?
The Cleric left. He didn't create any drama but I felt very bad.
What ******** leave a group member behind like that?
And why do we have to run ES1 to run ES2 to run ES3? Why are those gatekeeping quest mechanics not REMOVED ALREADY!?
Instead even more of those are introduced in Vecna Unleased, despite us protesting that issue!

Of course you can say, "why didn't the Cleric hurry up more?". Sure, it's valid.
However 2nd life, one might assume they're newer to the game.
And they certainly couldn't solo Demonweb.

I told the Cleric he can buy a 24 rogue hireling to unlock the door in Death Undone.
At first he was like "I'm not spending DDO Points for that", but I told him, no no it's from the Epic Hireling vendor.
I felt bad the whole time and still do.

Miserable egomaniacs and antisocial game design.
It is what it is, but it isn't right.

First ill agree that flagging quests are outdated, and should be revamped, but I don't manage the game, and while I don't agree with how its set up, its been that way for 10+ years? and doesn't seem to have any signs of being changed, yet every few days/weeks/months someone comes onto the forums and complains, and yet with no indication from the Dev crew as to this being changed, it baffles me that people still rant about it.

Second, I have no sympathy for PUG pikers. You join a PUG group, and then AFK for what ever the reason is, there should be ZERO expectation of players to continue to assist you. It doesn't matter if it was a 2nd life cleric of a 3x everything, greatest tank on the server, if the person AFK's in a PUG group, you leave that person behind, because DDO has taught a large portion of the player base that EXP PER MINUTE is the best way to level, and lets be honest, its all about grinding out lives. My time is important to me, the Potion that I purchased from the DDO store, to maximize the time i spend leveling is costly to me, and I am going to maximize its use as best as I can.

As far as "big city server people" goes. The expectation that everyone else on the server is going to run the way you want, think the way you want, play the way you want, level the way you want, is wacky. You want the "small town" feel to your gaming experience, join a static group, that plays together. Nobody leaves anyone behind, you meet and play when its good for the group, fun times for all. However once you join a pug, the momentum shifts to "how can i level my guy as quick as I can.

All of my LFM's say the same thing in them, "moving quickly", because while I am grinding out lives, 1 every 3 days, my main focus is getting the best EPM that I can manage. But if you get lost in a slayer area, or pike a quest, of say, "hey give me a minute or two I just need to go buy scrolls from House J and the Portable hole before I head that way, (yeah, that happened) then you should not expect people who are running content as fast as they can, to pump the breaks, because your not ready to play. Yes, i realize it was the cleric, not you, but my point stands. If your not ready to jump into the quest, don't hit the LFM and ask for people to wait, or to simply expect them to do so.

It sucks that you were trying to help what appeared to be a new player, or at least a new character, and it didn't go the way you hoped, but I can't get onboard with telling all the other players on DDO to slow down and repeat quests because someone who was piking got left behind.

As far as the "anti-social game designt", please remember when this game was created, and to some extent when MOTU came out, players grouped because you needed to to level in a timely fashion. In today's DDO, the majority of players don't need a party to level. Those that do, shouldn't be piking PUG groups, that's what your guild is for

 

[Lazuli]

Well, Grumpy, it's one thing to repeatedly be a piker and another to be unlucky to have something RL come up when you're in the middle of a quest. I think something like this has happened to all of us at some point. I have no sympathy for professional pikers (there aren't many, but there are some), but I think we have to be understanding of the contingencies that sometimes happen.

 

[erethizon1]

I haven't had many bad experiences with Orien, but then again I am the group leader the vast majority of the time. I always immediately share quests whenever someone joins and would have directed us to repeat the first quest since someone ended it too early. The problem comes primarily from people that don't feel a sense of obligation from being the leader. As the leader, you are obligated to care for those in your group. Some people view the game as a solo experience and they will let people tag along, but take no responsibility for them. Those people tend to be terrible group leaders. They are mostly just people you can pike off of as long as you know the game well enough to get everywhere without assistance.

 

[Grumpy]

Well, Grumpy, it's one thing to repeatedly be a piker and another to be unlucky to have something RL come up when you're in the middle of a quest. I think something like this has happened to all of us at some point. I have no sympathy for professional pikers (there aren't many, but there are some), but I think we have to be understanding of the contingencies that sometimes happen.

I agree, and with out knowing any more of the details, what has been my experience, is that when players in DDO suddenly go afk, without saying anything, and then being gone for X minutes, usually means they are not coming back anytime soon, as real life interupted. Yes, i have had to go afk in the middle of quests before. Its awesome when the party waited for me. Its normal when they haven't.

 

[Ahpuch]

The gating mechanisms of eveningstar suck but

Instead even more of those are introduced in Vecna Unleased, despite us protesting that issue!

What are the gating mechanisms in Vecna Unleashed? I recall that I could run any quest in VU at anytime, in any order.

Since Feywild they haven't created any gating/quest progression locks so complaining about a lesson that SSG seems to have learned fails to give them credit when due. Unless of course I am missing something.

 

[Grumpy]

The problem comes primarily from people that don't feel a sense of obligation from being the leader. As the leader, you are obligated to care for those in your group.

DDO isn't Pen and Paper, the leader leader puts up a LFM of what he is running, and people join or not based upon any text that person put in the LFM description, such as zerging, or doing all opt's, or Tank or Healer wanted.

When I am leveling I put up LFM's. They all say Moving Quickly. If you join, I have no obligation to do anything other than finish the quest, and let you know where we are going next.

 

[Urklore]

This is a perfect example of the archaic chain flagging. Most people run Sharn or LoD at levels 15-18. You see many LFMS posting for this Sharm quest or this LoD quest, but unless you are on the proper chain you cannot join. Which is really annoying. If I cannot get group to start a Sharn Welcome to do the entire chain in order, I can never join a party mid way.

 

[drjoans]

Being an Orien resident, I've always offered to rerun quests if someone missed out somehow or another. Most of the time the quests aren't even that long that they missed out on. I'm for sure guilty of zerging and have missed when a new member joins the party mid boss fight but most often I give an 'all in?' and the obligatory 'v' before killing the boss.

As I often host pugs I know that you have to set the tone for the group. You will get more zergy players, you will get flower sniffer, you will get pikers. Laying out expectations and communicating is key. Learning to nicely and playfully give directions like 'hey I know there's a fire under your but to get-her done but lets wait 2 parsecs for everyone to get in', or 'they're still afk, should we wait?' Often to that second one most people are willing to give it up to 2-5min

I would agree that a good group leader isn't in everyone but if you want to see more good groups you gotta lead by example and foster the culture.

 

[PersonMan]

This is a perfect example of the archaic chain flagging. Most people run Sharn or LoD at levels 15-18. You see many LFMS posting for this Sharm quest or this LoD quest, but unless you are on the proper chain you cannot join. Which is really annoying. If I cannot get group to start a Sharn Welcome to do the entire chain in order, I can never join a party mid way.

Sharn is definitely one of the worst offenders since you can't even red door.

 

[Dandonk]

Quest chains like Sharn and too many others need to be uncoupled. It's very anti-grouping, for no good reason.

 

[Ahpuch]

Sharn is definitely one of the worst offenders since you can't even red door.

Yes Sharn is the worst offender in the entire pantheon of DDO quests. I try to take a positive look at it in that quest chaining went out with a bang as they haven't had chaining since then. It might have been what made SSG finally learn what players had been telling them.

Eveningstar is probably 2nd worst. I don't think you can get into the demon web for the last few quests without "the portal opens". You may be able to red door the Drow quests but I am not certain.