Add 10 tokens of the twelve to E3BC saga reward

[droid327]

Right now tokens are in a bad place for TRing. They only drop from low epic level quests that you rarely run, outside of grinding tokens - so every life you're left ransacking BoB & LoD before you can actually reincarnate, after you've already leveled to 20

Putting 10 in 3BC would at least give you a different low epic path to TR that wasn't as repetitive

 

[Visik]

I get the idea that Tokens of the Twelve would/should be limited to Eberron content.. where the Twelve is relevant. I also agree that the necessity to run the same quests all the time to farm them gets old. Seems to me there ought to be a few more quest chains that could/would drop them. It rather suggests that they're trying to force people to buy them from the Store.

And since all the quests that drop them at all are L20-22 (iirc), in HC I almost leveled past the ability to earn them once. So putting some options in higher-level content wouldn't go amiss. An excellent option would be the four new Twelve quests on the rim: Two are L21, but Memory Lapse is L23 and Price of Freedom is L25. (More incentive to run WPM, which is part of the same pack, probably isn't required.) And the Epic versions of the Heart of Madness chain quests are L26 and COULD use some incentive. And since all of them provide Twelve Favor, thematically it seems to fit.

 

[Ahpuch]

I get the idea that Tokens of the Twelve would/should be limited to Eberron content.. where the Twelve is relevant.

I wont even go that far considering they were epic dungeon tokens and were renamed to tokens of the twelve to justify not putting the tokens in the new Menace of the Underdark quests. Saying that lore doesnt allow them in eveningstar is missing the fact that they are fine with changing the lore to justify post hoc. Of course, this point is irrelevant because:

It rather suggests that they're trying to force people to buy them from the Store.

This is exactly it. They have (possibly begrudgingly) left the in game but they are not keen on making them any easier to get. Getting one a year as a vip (greater bag of holding) was their biggest movemement on this topic in years. Maybe in another 10 years they will add something more.

 

[The Narc]

I get the idea that Tokens of the Twelve would/should be limited to Eberron content.. where the Twelve is relevant. I also agree that the necessity to run the same quests all the time to farm them gets old. Seems to me there ought to be a few more quest chains that could/would drop them. It rather suggests that they're trying to force people to buy them from the Store.

And since all the quests that drop them at all are L20-22 (iirc), in HC I almost leveled past the ability to earn them once. So putting some options in higher-level content wouldn't go amiss. An excellent option would be the four new Twelve quests on the rim: Two are L21, but Memory Lapse is L23 and Price of Freedom is L25. (More incentive to run WPM, which is part of the same pack, probably isn't required.) And the Epic versions of the Heart of Madness chain quests are L26 and COULD use some incentive. And since all of them provide Twelve Favor, thematically it seems to fit.

There is still already ways to get your tokens of the twelve in level range 25-27, it seems that the issue here is that people want to be earning max xp/min while farming their tokens. I understand that epic questing is ad nauseium so i can see why people want to get thru it as quick as possible.

 

[droid327]

There is still already ways to get your tokens of the twelve in level range 25-27, it seems that the issue here is that people want to be earning max xp/min while farming their tokens. I understand that epic questing is ad nauseium so i can see why people want to get thru it as quick as possible.

Its not just min-max XP/min, its the design that you have to wait until you're ready to reincarnate before you can even start to grind Tokens to reincarnate. And that grind is only for Tokens, because the loot is non-existent and the XP is wasted once you TR. So its a complete sidetrack from the leveling process. Unless you grind them with a L20 alt, in which case its still only for tokens since they wont be able to earn any RXP either.

Plus also the disparity in tokens/min between the "good" quests and the bad ones means, effectively, there's even fewer options to get "back on track" ASAP

You just hit 20, you're ready to flip and excited to start your next life. Conversely, you're often not well equipped to dive into Epic content, since you probably dont have gear, filigrees, etc. that match your build - or you're doing a template build that isnt meant to play past 20 at all. That's a bad time, design wise, to shove your players into the penalty box and make them wait to continue progressing.

 

[Phoenicis]

Some people won't be happy no matter what SSG does.

They offer hearts in the store, so if you don't want to run the quests to earn them in game you don't have to.

The offer a way to earn the hearts for free in the game so if you don't want to pay DDO store points for them you don't have to.

You want them to just hand you the hearts? That's what it seems like to me.

 

[The Narc]

Its not just min-max XP/min, its the design that you have to wait until you're ready to reincarnate before you can even start to grind Tokens to reincarnate. And that grind is only for Tokens, because the loot is non-existent and the XP is wasted once you TR. So its a complete sidetrack from the leveling process. Unless you grind them with a L20 alt, in which case its still only for tokens since they wont be able to earn any RXP either.

Plus also the disparity in tokens/min between the "good" quests and the bad ones means, effectively, there's even fewer options to get "back on track" ASAP

You just hit 20, you're ready to flip and excited to start your next life. Conversely, you're often not well equipped to dive into Epic content, since you probably dont have gear, filigrees, etc. that match your build - or you're doing a template build that isnt meant to play past 20 at all. That's a bad time, design wise, to shove your players into the penalty box and make them wait to continue progressing.

Make yourself a level 21 token farming toon and you will be able to get your heart in under 3 hours. If that is too much work for you then it does seem that you just want things handed to you, and obviously with the hearts for sale in the store thats just not going to happen.

 

[droid327]

Some people won't be happy no matter what SSG does.

They offer hearts in the store, so if you don't want to run the quests to earn them in game you don't have to.

The offer a way to earn the hearts for free in the game so if you don't want to pay DDO store points for them you don't have to.

You want them to just hand you the hearts? That's what it seems like to me.

I dont want the Hearts to be external to regular play. I want to be able to earn the Tokens I need while I play, not having to stop regular play and grind them through irregular play...ie playing L21 content on a L32 alt, or grinding the same 2 quests 8 times each in a row.

This is comparable to many other systems in the game, where you earn what you need as you play through them (e.g. Dino Bones, Raid Runes). Those arent "just handed to you" because you earn them through regular play. At low Epic levels, regular play includes the 3BC saga, so that's where I asked for it.

 

[droid327]

Make yourself a level 21 token farming toon and you will be able to get your heart in under 3 hours. If that is too much work for you then it does seem that you just want things handed to you, and obviously with the hearts for sale in the store thats just not going to happen.

I can get it in less than that already, 16xBOB = 48 mins + 4xLOD = 20 mins split between two alts

That's not the point. The question isnt whether its "too much work", the question is playing the game should never be "work" at all. Take time and effort and sometimes a bit of luck? Yes - but that doesnt mean you have to lock it behind an arbitrary grind wall that forces you out of the game's actual gameplay loop.

 

[woq]

Some people won't be happy no matter what SSG does.

They offer hearts in the store, so if you don't want to run the quests to earn them in game you don't have to.

The offer a way to earn the hearts for free in the game so if you don't want to pay DDO store points for them you don't have to.

You want them to just hand you the hearts? That's what it seems like to me.

The game would be unable to exist with their ludicrous pricing of those hearts if they were not earnable in game. Since they already are very farmable, the question becomes if the methods of doing so are fun and/or engaging for the player.

This is where people have differing opinions - some people don't mind doing the same quests every life (many of them are incredibly rewarding, but not necessarily in the token front - wiz-king & VoN 4 come to mind) a couple times and get the tokens they need, or seem to think the social action of putting up "help pull token please please please" -lfm's is a good thing for whatever reason. Others would like to do not-those-quests every life, maybe some other quests - and would prefer variance, since that is what you get used to at cap and IMO The commendation / seed system works vastly better than the token system. Then there are people don't care and just make 5 alt accounts for this very specific purpose because it is so unfun over a longer period of repetition and just get it over with.

It's not a question of just handing the hearts. It's about giving players more choice in how and when to go about getting said hearts.

 

[Phoenicis]

1495 DDO store points can be easily earned in a single 1-20 life

 

[woq]

1495 DDO store points can be easily earned in a single 1-20 life

I see we come from completely different cultures and do not have a common language.

 

[Aelonwy]

I definitely think more Eberron quests should give Tokens of the Twelve. I wouldn't mind if some smaller amount were in the Epic 3BC saga but I'd like to point to the White Plume Mountain side quests. If not a full token, these additional epic quests with quest givers in the Twelve should have at least had a chance to drop fragments.

The problem from SSG's point of view (not ours) is that it's already too easy to get hearts for free.

This^ is the real issue. If they could remove tokens for free hearts without everyone quitting, they absolutely would.

IF memory serves, and I could be way off, they were going to add them to the commendations options.

However the proposed turn in rate doubled or tripled the number of quests that needed to be run before you would be able to get a heart.

It was a little more complicated than that... in the original Commendations proposal Heart Seeds did NOT exist. As you know low epics give dreadful amounts of commendations even on Elite and a heart still costs the arbitrary amount of 4200 commendations. Players rightfully pointed out that not only would their previously acquired Tokens be deprecated but they would likely have to go all the way to the cap of the time to acquire enough commendations for a heart to reincarnate at 20, sort of defeating the purpose of wanting to reincarnate at 20 itself. During the backlash, the devs made the addition of Heart Seeds to the proposal but again Heart Seeds are only acquirable once the character achieves level 30 (or the cap at that time.) So again not helpful in that debate for acquiring a heart that could be used to TR at 20. Eventually, the devs agreed to keeping Epic Tokens renamed Tokens of the Twelve but then seemed petty about NOT adding Epic Hearts of Wood to the commendations system.

It all boils down to they want hurdles and grinds to us acquiring Free Hearts of Wood so that some people motivated by impatience or boredom will purchase hearts for points or real money.

 

[rabidfox]

1495 DDO store points can be easily earned in a single 1-20 life

That's 6k favor to earn that; not a typical thing anyone does on a 1-20 life.

 

[Phoenicis]

That's 6k favor to earn that; not a typical thing anyone does on a 1-20 life.

point taken.

 

[Phoenicis]

8<snip>*

It all boils down to they want hurdles and grinds to us acquiring Free Hearts of Wood so that some people motivated by impatience or boredom will purchase hearts for points or real money.

I agree, they want hurdles and grinds so that they still might have a minor revenue stream to extend they day when they are forced to shut the game down to not enough income because no one wants to spend a nickel on a game they spend hours a day playing.

By all means. Spend NO money on a game you play all the time. Force SSG to shut down completely and. . . Completely remove your ability to play the game at all.

Wonderful plan there.

 

[The Narc]

I agree, they want hurdles and grinds so that they still might have a minor revenue stream to extend they day when they are forced to shut the game down to not enough income because no one wants to spend a nickel on a game they spend hours a day playing.

By all means. Spend NO money on a game you play all the time. Force SSG to shut down completely and. . . Completely remove your ability to play the game at all.

Wonderful plan there.

That has been my plan since the IPS nerf, although i enjoy the ride while it is still going, but when the ride is over i will still feel like i won, and i have curtailed and shown so many friends how this company operates and i push them to agree that they will never play another game from this company and also to recognize the main players making the decisions for this game and also avoid their other endeavours in the future.

The greedy motives of slowing the quest completion times with that nerf and the many that followed to steal the fun from the game will not ever be forgotten and is recognized by me and many others as the status quo.

I at one time spent money on the game, but thats not happening again unless the corporate culture changes dramatically.

I never minded the grinds for certain ingredients in the game and can agree with you on those being a place where pay to win whales or endgamers, could spend their real cash to be the most uber player ever. Instead they tried to make the heroic grind and more recently epic grind less enjoyable so they could funnel more players towards end game in hopes of trying to drag others into that iner end game player race. You can tell by the success of hardcore that so many players dont care about end game.

 

[voenixa121]

That has been my plan since the IPS nerf, although i enjoy the ride while it is still going, but when the ride is over i will still feel like i won, and i have curtailed and shown so many friends how this company operates and i push them to agree that they will never play another game from this company and also to recognize the main players making the decisions for this game and also avoid their other endeavours in the future.

The greedy motives of slowing the quest completion times with that nerf and the many that followed to steal the fun from the game will not ever be forgotten and is recognized by me and many others as the status quo.

I at one time spent money on the game, but thats not happening again unless the corporate culture changes dramatically.

I never minded the grinds for certain ingredients in the game and can agree with you on those being a place where pay to win whales or endgamers, could spend their real cash to be the most uber player ever. Instead they tried to make the heroic grind and more recently epic grind less enjoyable so they could funnel more players towards end game in hopes of trying to drag others into that iner end game player race. You can tell by the success of hardcore that so many players dont care about end game.

So you are one of these people that boycotts everything? Man, you probably can't use anything from any company if this is where you draw the line.

 

[voenixa121]

It all boils down to they want hurdles and grinds to us acquiring Free Hearts of Wood so that some people motivated by impatience or boredom will purchase hearts for points or real money.

You have probably started playing before this game went f2p? This is how these games always work.
Although I agree that the hearts should be cheaper in the store, especially lesser hearts. It's not gonna bankrupt the game.
I don't think they should add tokens to the saga though. This really does seem like a min/max problem. There are a lot of quests that give these. And if someone reincarnates that often, complaining about repeat content is a weird argument to make.

 

[The Narc]

So you are one of these people that boycotts everything? Man, you probably can't use anything from any company if this is where you draw the line.

Definitely have some things i boycott, and usually promote things that dont use the same antics as those places that i boycott. But i get and have all the things i want via sourcing out places that are fully respected by their clientele, man, you probably one of those people that says anything you buy from any company was the best idea ever, oh hey i know of a company that sells land with luxury houses on it in mexico.

P.s. obviously by the many current threads of disappointment by the ddo customers the reapect line has drawn very thin.

 

[Aelonwy]

By all means. Spend NO money on a game you play all the time. Force SSG to shut down completely and. . . Completely remove your ability to play the game at all.

Wonderful plan there.

My family spends significantly more than zero money on the game. We sub on and off, we frequently purchase the top tier of the expansion bundles x2, and mid or top tier for our son, once top tier for our daughter. We purchase point bundles. I purchase cosmetic bundles. I don't understand your hostility toward my statement. It was a statement of fact. Its not an opinion that they want a certain amount of grind in the game to encourage microtransactions. We may disagree about the degree or necessity of grindwalls but they exist. I determine when I spend my money. Only I determine what I enjoy.

For me these designs meant to bore or aggravate me into spending don't have their desired outcome. So sure, I spend ZERO money buying hearts. But I support the game in the ways that increase my enjoyment. I will also advocate for tweaking the game in ways that would increase mine and others enjoyment. Making Tokens of the Twelve or as I suggested Fragments of Tokens of the Twelve drop in a wider range of Epic Eberron content would not significantly change the rate at which people acquire free hearts only decrease the boredom/irritation. What is the time difference between running BoB for the umpteenth time or running a new quest for a chance at fragments while doing something different? Furthermore, it might also encourage players to purchase other adventure packs if a chance at fragments is included.

The reason they gave for reducing repeat xp was to decrease burn-out but they seem perfectly fine with people running the same subset of quests for Tokens with 42 racial and 45 heroic past lives. Something doesn't add up.