Build Challenge

CBDunk

Well-known member
From time to time, and quite frequently in the currently ongoing discussions over the planned Epic Destiny balance pass, claims are made that DDO is currently 'easier than it has ever been' or that 'brand new characters of every type (i.e. tank, ranged DPS, instakill caster, CC caster, blaster caster, ranged DPS, stealth, etc) can solo high reapers at endgame'. Inevitably, there are stated to be 'countless' videos and builds posted all over showing this to be the case... but no links to such are provided. Or when you track one of these builds down you discover that, 'well of course you need +8 tomes for all stats' or 'well you have to be with a R10 tank' or 'it absolutely works so long as you have a jibbers blade and a reaper hat version of this particular raid item and...'. Et cetera.

So... a challenge. I'd like to see the vast array of builds that can meet the following criteria;
  • Any Race/Class/Destiny/Combo thereof
  • At level cap (currently 32)
  • NO Tomes (Stat, Skill, AP, RP, XP, mysterious, et cetera)
  • NO Past Lives
  • NO Reaper Points spent
  • NO Guild Buffs
  • NO Mythic/Reaper/Fortune bonuses on gear
  • All gear must be un-named random generated, cannith crafted, or named gear that drops 100% of the time on first playthrough (e.g. Voice of the Master). The various 'zone specific' (e.g. Shining Reliquary, Dinosaur Bone (NOT Attuned), Ferrocrystal, Serranian, et cetera) weapon types that can be easily purchased are all acceptable. Anything that requires raid runes, 20 completions, or luck to get is out.
  • Able to regularly beat nearly all Legendary quests SOLO on Reaper 6 difficulty
Please post full builds or links to such.

P.S. Hearing only <crickets>, let's take Doom Reapers out of the equation and drop it from R10 down to R6.
 
Last edited:

Silverfox

Well-known member
From time to time, and quite frequently in the currently ongoing discussions over the planned Epic Destiny balance pass, claims are made that DDO is currently 'easier than it has ever been' or that 'brand new characters of every type (i.e. tank, ranged DPS, instakill caster, CC caster, blaster caster, ranged DPS, stealth, etc) can solo high reapers at endgame'. Inevitably, there are stated to be 'countless' videos and builds posted all over showing this to be the case... but no links to such are provided. Or when you track one of these builds down you discover that, 'well of course you need +8 tomes for all stats' or 'well you have to be with a R10 tank' or 'it absolutely works so long as you have a jibbers blade and a reaper hat version of this particular raid item and...'. Et cetera.

So... a challenge. I'd like to see the vast array of builds that can meet the following criteria;
  • Any Race/Class/Destiny/Combo thereof
  • At level cap (currently 32)
  • NO Tomes (Stat, Skill, AP, RP, XP, mysterious, et cetera)
  • NO Past Lives
  • NO Reaper Points spent
  • NO Guild Buffs
  • NO Mythic/Reaper/Fortune bonuses on gear
  • All gear must be un-named random generated, cannith crafted, or named gear that drops 100% of the time on first playthrough (e.g. Voice of the Master). The various 'zone specific' (e.g. Shining Reliquary, Dinosaur Bone (NOT Attuned), Ferrocrystal, Serranian, et cetera) weapon types that can be easily purchased are all acceptable. Anything that requires raid runes, 20 completions, or luck to get is out.
  • Able to regularly beat nearly all Legendary quests SOLO on Reaper 10 difficulty
Please post full builds or links to such.

I would prefer to actually see the post(s) where anyone made this claim to begin with.
 

The Narc

Well-known member
If such builds actually exist, people won't be dumb enough to post and get them nerfed.
This is true for anything good in game, if you know it, share it with known friends and dont make it public and ask them to not make it public or it has the potential to be changed.

The big problem is when you do share it with a friend and then it eventually trickles down to one of these “my life is streaming people”, they are sure to stream about it like they are the genius(pure sarcasm) that came up with the idea themselves. Funny thing is these streams clearly show how inept they are at using such said ability, and if someone so inept can use that ability to such effectiveness then it is surely overpowered and needs nerfing.

I mean this or that power must be overpower if you can crush content fast even whilst rimstromming, and thereby surely deserves a nerf bat, because if it can be rimstrommed than any average joe can be overpowering with that build/power.

👍🏻
 

CBDunk

Well-known member
If such builds actually exist, people won't be dumb enough to post and get them nerfed.

Nah, I'm told they're common and people talk about them all the time.

I'm shocked... shocked I say, not to have gotten any examples.

I would prefer to actually see the post(s) where anyone made this claim to begin with.

Sure. I made some of the text in the original post links.

Since the R10 builds aren't exactly pouring in, I also dropped the challenge down to R6... which I think might actually be possible with a handful of super meta builds. Anyone?
 

Smokewolf

Well-known member
DDO's old forums is littered with examples of fools who posted over-performing builds, only to have it Nerfed. This is unfortunate for 2 reasons:

- Radical changes (nerfs) to the game often have unforseen consequences for other builds. Frequently requiring roll-backs or several rounds of (annoying) adjustments to balance out. Ultimately, its DDO's game population that ends up bearing the weight of the consequences.

- Skilled / knowledgeable players that discover a new (not by design) method to utilize a game mechanism, are treated as exploiters for their creativity and adaptability. During DDO's first few years, this happened quite frequently, with many players losing their accounts. Truth is, they played the game that was made avalible, not the game that was intended.
 

The Narc

Well-known member
From time to time, and quite frequently in the currently ongoing discussions over the planned Epic Destiny balance pass, claims are made that DDO is currently 'easier than it has ever been' or that 'brand new characters of every type (i.e. tank, ranged DPS, instakill caster, CC caster, blaster caster, ranged DPS, stealth, etc) can solo high reapers at endgame'. Inevitably, there are stated to be 'countless' videos and builds posted all over showing this to be the case... but no links to such are provided. Or when you track one of these builds down you discover that, 'well of course you need +8 tomes for all stats' or 'well you have to be with a R10 tank' or 'it absolutely works so long as you have a jibbers blade and a reaper hat version of this particular raid item and...'. Et cetera.

So... a challenge. I'd like to see the vast array of builds that can meet the following criteria;
  • Any Race/Class/Destiny/Combo thereof
  • At level cap (currently 32)
  • NO Tomes (Stat, Skill, AP, RP, XP, mysterious, et cetera)
  • NO Past Lives
  • NO Reaper Points spent
  • NO Guild Buffs
  • NO Mythic/Reaper/Fortune bonuses on gear
  • All gear must be un-named random generated, cannith crafted, or named gear that drops 100% of the time on first playthrough (e.g. Voice of the Master). The various 'zone specific' (e.g. Shining Reliquary, Dinosaur Bone (NOT Attuned), Ferrocrystal, Serranian, et cetera) weapon types that can be easily purchased are all acceptable. Anything that requires raid runes, 20 completions, or luck to get is out.
  • Able to regularly beat nearly all Legendary quests SOLO on Reaper 6 difficulty
Please post full builds or links to such.

P.S. Hearing only <crickets>, let's take Doom Reapers out of the equation and drop it from R10 down to R6.
R6 is totally possible with a first life toon, but you would have built up some reaper points in that first life, i guess you could turn them off. You would have atleast one if not two tomes, one at 1750 and likely another at 5000. Using first life gear is not an issue, i used mostly level 12 gear and under on my hardcore toon in legendary content with a few level 16 and one cannith crafted level 25 piece of gear, and smashed elite content without slowing down, R6 would just require a little more crawling.

Would it be flawless execution on all the quests at cap? Not Likely.

Am i going to share the build and how it works with you or anyone else publicly? Not a chance.

I play in Mortal Voyage permadeath, we run quests in groups at adjusted level -2, with no ship buffs or house p/j buffs, if you are looking for regular challenge with consequences OP roll up a toon and come play with us.

P.S. i do fail to see your point of playing R6 if you are not atleast going tonuse the reaper points you are earning

P.S.S. If you are trying to cut down players with iber amounts of past lives gear and reaper points, i suggest you dont waste your time on players that mostly bought there way to that or have playtime beyond the average person. There are exceptions, but for the most part they just want to feel like big man on campus and you should care little about what they do.
 

Ike

Well-known member
From time to time, and quite frequently in the currently ongoing discussions over the planned Epic Destiny balance pass, claims are made that DDO is currently 'easier than it has ever been' or that 'brand new characters of every type (i.e. tank, ranged DPS, instakill caster, CC caster, blaster caster, ranged DPS, stealth, etc) can solo high reapers at endgame'. Inevitably, there are stated to be 'countless' videos and builds posted all over showing this to be the case... but no links to such are provided. Or when you track one of these builds down you discover that, 'well of course you need +8 tomes for all stats' or 'well you have to be with a R10 tank' or 'it absolutely works so long as you have a jibbers blade and a reaper hat version of this particular raid item and...'. Et cetera.

So... a challenge. I'd like to see the vast array of builds that can meet the following criteria;
  • Any Race/Class/Destiny/Combo thereof
  • At level cap (currently 32)
  • NO Tomes (Stat, Skill, AP, RP, XP, mysterious, et cetera)
  • NO Past Lives
  • NO Reaper Points spent
  • NO Guild Buffs
  • NO Mythic/Reaper/Fortune bonuses on gear
  • All gear must be un-named random generated, cannith crafted, or named gear that drops 100% of the time on first playthrough (e.g. Voice of the Master). The various 'zone specific' (e.g. Shining Reliquary, Dinosaur Bone (NOT Attuned), Ferrocrystal, Serranian, et cetera) weapon types that can be easily purchased are all acceptable. Anything that requires raid runes, 20 completions, or luck to get is out.
  • Able to regularly beat nearly all Legendary quests SOLO on Reaper 6 difficulty
Please post full builds or links to such.

P.S. Hearing only <crickets>, let's take Doom Reapers out of the equation and drop it from R10 down to R6.
It's called a druid bear. Moving on, NEXT.
 

Onyxia2016

Well-known member
Unfortunately build sharing and theory crafting in general are dying out.

Main reason, based on chats with many folks, is not wanting builds being nuked from orbit because they are not meta or seen as an elite build.
I can certainly understand this. I mean who wants to share a build they have been working on, just to be told it was junk and they do not know what they are doing or how to play.

I have talked to no one that fears SSG with use their build as a source for future nerfs. I response I get is, SSG has access to all the server data. That can see what builds players are running when sailing through the hardest content without much effort. That is what they would target. No some first life level build. This actually made sense to me.

There are some old timers that still share build advice and in some cases complete builds but they are few and far between.
All you have to do is look at the class specific sections and see how few posts there are.
It is a shame really. Long ago that was one of the cool things about the DDO community. Everyone wanted to help lift each other up instead of knocking them down.
 

The Narc

Well-known member
Unfortunately build sharing and theory crafting in general are dying out.

Main reason, based on chats with many folks, is not wanting builds being nuked from orbit because they are not meta or seen as an elite build.
I can certainly understand this. I mean who wants to share a build they have been working on, just to be told it was junk and they do not know what they are doing or how to play.

I have talked to no one that fears SSG with use their build as a source for future nerfs. I response I get is, SSG has access to all the server data. That can see what builds players are running when sailing through the hardest content without much effort. That is what they would target. No some first life level build. This actually made sense to me.

There are some old timers that still share build advice and in some cases complete builds but they are few and far between.
All you have to do is look at the class specific sections and see how few posts there are.
It is a shame really. Long ago that was one of the cool things about the DDO community. Everyone wanted to help lift each other up instead of knocking them down.
I love when i see the “server data” comment, I often post about analytics from hardcore.

But…… and this is a huge but

Seeing the build and the gear and knowing what quests were done and how fast does not give the devs enough info to be able to react with nerfs.

First, the devs cant just nerf a successfully strong build based off build alone as this will impact a wide range of other builds that were somewhat effective and utterly destroy them into nothing thereby pissing off that clientelle.

Secondly, there are many first life builds that can absolutely destroy content, but the key to that is the player behind the build. Some builds get nuked because any joe schmoo can destroy content with them hence the not so recent nerf to inquisitive, favoured souls and bards(give those builds to talented players and it becomes utter destruction of content).

Thirdly the devs even with all the analytics can only really truly understand what is going on when they have a complete description of how to play the build or they have a video for reference. These are the big no-no’s for what elite players will not do with their builds as they know and have seen the results, common discussion in game is “dont share how we do this with the public verbally or in chat and dont post anything on the forums”. As a matter of fact dont post anything in chat or forums you dont want SSG to have. Do it in live chat or on text/voice on your own personal phones.

To conclude in response to your post, there are people that share their build info, but they do it in game with known people that they can hear their voice and play with for a long enough duration to determine that the person they are playing with are not likely a dev or an SSG employee, as most elite players understand the pain of losing certain previous builds due to sharing too much where the devs/SSG have access thereby losing some of the fun they were having with the game. The whole point of playing a game is to have fun.

Signed
The Narc
 

Sheikra

Well-known member
From time to time, and quite frequently in the currently ongoing discussions over the planned Epic Destiny balance pass, claims are made that DDO is currently 'easier than it has ever been' or that 'brand new characters of every type (i.e. tank, ranged DPS, instakill caster, CC caster, blaster caster, ranged DPS, stealth, etc) can solo high reapers at endgame'. Inevitably, there are stated to be 'countless' videos and builds posted all over showing this to be the case... but no links to such are provided. Or when you track one of these builds down you discover that, 'well of course you need +8 tomes for all stats' or 'well you have to be with a R10 tank' or 'it absolutely works so long as you have a jibbers blade and a reaper hat version of this particular raid item and...'. Et cetera.

So... a challenge. I'd like to see the vast array of builds that can meet the following criteria;
  • Any Race/Class/Destiny/Combo thereof
  • At level cap (currently 32)
  • NO Tomes (Stat, Skill, AP, RP, XP, mysterious, et cetera)
  • NO Past Lives
  • NO Reaper Points spent
  • NO Guild Buffs
  • NO Mythic/Reaper/Fortune bonuses on gear
  • All gear must be un-named random generated, cannith crafted, or named gear that drops 100% of the time on first playthrough (e.g. Voice of the Master). The various 'zone specific' (e.g. Shining Reliquary, Dinosaur Bone (NOT Attuned), Ferrocrystal, Serranian, et cetera) weapon types that can be easily purchased are all acceptable. Anything that requires raid runes, 20 completions, or luck to get is out.
  • Able to regularly beat nearly all Legendary quests SOLO on Reaper 6 difficulty
Please post full builds or links to such.

P.S. Hearing only <crickets>, let's take Doom Reapers out of the equation and drop it from R10 down to R6.
This is clearly nonsense. I challenge you to provide 1 claim of someone soloing r10s with no tomes, gear, reaper points, etc. That's a nonsense request, based on a nonsense premise you made up.

Unclear what your goal is, unless you're just a troll I guess
 

Onyxia2016

Well-known member
I love when i see the “server data” comment, I often post about analytics from hardcore.

But…… and this is a huge but

Seeing the build and the gear and knowing what quests were done and how fast does not give the devs enough info to be able to react with nerfs.

First, the devs cant just nerf a successfully strong build based off build alone as this will impact a wide range of other builds that were somewhat effective and utterly destroy them into nothing thereby pissing off that clientelle.

Secondly, there are many first life builds that can absolutely destroy content, but the key to that is the player behind the build. Some builds get nuked because any joe schmoo can destroy content with them hence the not so recent nerf to inquisitive, favoured souls and bards(give those builds to talented players and it becomes utter destruction of content).

Thirdly the devs even with all the analytics can only really truly understand what is going on when they have a complete description of how to play the build or they have a video for reference. These are the big no-no’s for what elite players will not do with their builds as they know and have seen the results, common discussion in game is “dont share how we do this with the public verbally or in chat and dont post anything on the forums”. As a matter of fact dont post anything in chat or forums you dont want SSG to have. Do it in live chat or on text/voice on your own personal phones.

To conclude in response to your post, there are people that share their build info, but they do it in game with known people that they can hear their voice and play with for a long enough duration to determine that the person they are playing with are not likely a dev or an SSG employee, as most elite players understand the pain of losing certain previous builds due to sharing too much where the devs/SSG have access thereby losing some of the fun they were having with the game. The whole point of playing a game is to have fun.

Signed
The Narc

I disagree. I data mine and provide analytics for a living for a multi-million dollar company. I paint a picture using only data all the time.

If I had access to the server data I could show what builds rise to the top of the heap when it comes to speed at which quests are completed. Taking into account past lives, tomes, etc. that offer some advantage.

Player skill is a big part which can be be view to a limited degree based on account history. While being a long term player does not automatically mean you are skilled, it can be give a weight in the analysis.

A very simplified example would be.... (this is not a detailed how to, only broad strokes)

1) Identify a quest the was designed to be an extreme challenge.
2) Pull quest time to complete data with a specific data range.
3) Fine the mean average to complete the quest. Taking quest level vs character level into account.
4) Focus on the top 10% where character level and quest level are close.
5) Determine the number of party members that are real players and not hirelings.
6) Identify the class(es), AP point spend in tress.
7) Identify common build make ups.
8) If combat log data is maintained it could be used to determine what is doing the most damage as well as what is mitigating incoming damage.

From here it is relatively easy to see what build/abilities are clearly rising to the top. This adds focus for any potential nerf possibilities.
This become even easier if players are soloing this content at level and blasting though as fast or faster than most groups.

Using the data alone one can recreate any encounter from start to finish.
So that uber/elite build that crushes everything in record time would shine like a beacon in the night once the data is properly modeled.
Some of the stuff I am doing the AI assisted data modeling, the insights and patterns it finds in record time are down right scary.

Now would SSG invest the time an energy into doing this, probably not as there is little financial gain vs time invented.
Is it possible to discover that super build that only those who know the secret handshake has access to, you betcha.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
All gear must be un-named random generated,
Just say you want hardcore builds then.

My guild started a build challenge like you're talking about. The purpose of our guild challenge is to push difficulty in short-man raids (4-6 people) as high as we can go. It has slightly different parameters:

1. No past lives.
2. No reaper points spent.
3. One +2 tome and one +5 tome (favor rewards available in game).
4. Sentient gem limited to 60k XP. No sentient swap weapons.
5. No raid gear or gear made from raid items, including threads (such as raid filigree)
6. Skill tomes +3 are permitted since they are saga rewards.
7. No AP tomes spent. That limits builds to 80 AP for heroic enhancements, and 61 AP for epic destinies.
8. No rare consumables like Rising Fury potions, Radiant Forcefield potions, or mana potions. Epic and Legendary ROSS are permitted.

I built out a Dwarf Favored Soul 17/Paladin 3 healer, a Gnome Alchemist 20 nuker, and an Aasimar Paladin 20 SWF. All work very well. With the alchemist, I even soloed most R3 Legendary content without any reaper points spent. All of those builds have been posted to the forum.
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
As somebody quoted, this is a substantial misrepresentation of what I've claimed: I've said that duoing r10, or soloing r8, with fully-equipped and well-built first lifers is possible. This is the opposite of "no named gear"—as I pointed out in that thread, a lot of that power is in named clickies, etc. With that said, Ying's parameters are more reasonable, I may try to throw something together for ~r4-r5 solo? (to account for the lack of power in sentient, raid gear, tomes, first 30 reaper points, etc. compared to a fully-built first life character). Also, no guild buffs? I think you're missing the point of what I've been trying to say, at least, which is that lives don't mean you have to give up every other part of your character power (guild buffs, good gear, etc.)
 

Onyxia2016

Well-known member
Just say you want hardcore builds then.

My guild started a build challenge like you're talking about. The purpose of our guild challenge is to push difficulty in short-man raids (4-6 people) as high as we can go. It has slightly different parameters:

1. No past lives.
2. No reaper points spent.
3. One +2 tome and one +5 tome (favor rewards available in game).
4. Sentient gem limited to 60k XP. No sentient swap weapons.
5. No raid gear or gear made from raid items, including threads (such as raid filigree)
6. Skill tomes +3 are permitted since they are saga rewards.
7. No AP tomes spent. That limits builds to 80 AP for heroic enhancements, and 61 AP for epic destinies.
8. No rare consumables like Rising Fury potions, Radiant Forcefield potions, or mana potions. Epic and Legendary ROSS are permitted.

I built out a Dwarf Favored Soul 17/Paladin 3 healer, a Gnome Alchemist 20 nuker, and an Aasimar Paladin 20 SWF. All work very well. With the alchemist, I even soloed most R3 Legendary content without any reaper points spent. All of those builds have been posted to the forum.
I have see those builds and they are good ones. Hell I even played them (except the Alchemist).
That Aasimar Paladin had a very smooth play style to it.

With these exception there is limited information on first life builds or those not designed around past lives and tomes or purposed built for cap R10 play.

Unless I misunderstood the OP's original post, these starter to intermediate builds are the focus.
 

The Narc

Well-known member
I disagree. I data mine and provide analytics for a living for a multi-million dollar company. I paint a picture using only data all the time.

If I had access to the server data I could show what builds rise to the top of the heap when it comes to speed at which quests are completed. Taking into account past lives, tomes, etc. that offer some advantage.

Player skill is a big part which can be be view to a limited degree based on account history. While being a long term player does not automatically mean you are skilled, it can be give a weight in the analysis.

A very simplified example would be.... (this is not a detailed how to, only broad strokes)

1) Identify a quest the was designed to be an extreme challenge.
2) Pull quest time to complete data with a specific data range.
3) Fine the mean average to complete the quest. Taking quest level vs character level into account.
4) Focus on the top 10% where character level and quest level are close.
5) Determine the number of party members that are real players and not hirelings.
6) Identify the class(es), AP point spend in tress.
7) Identify common build make ups.
8) If combat log data is maintained it could be used to determine what is doing the most damage as well as what is mitigating incoming damage.

From here it is relatively easy to see what build/abilities are clearly rising to the top. This adds focus for any potential nerf possibilities.
This become even easier if players are soloing this content at level and blasting though as fast or faster than most groups.

Using the data alone one can recreate any encounter from start to finish.
So that uber/elite build that crushes everything in record time would shine like a beacon in the night once the data is properly modeled.
Some of the stuff I am doing the AI assisted data modeling, the insights and patterns it finds in record time are down right scary.

Now would SSG invest the time an energy into doing this, probably not as there is little financial gain vs time invented.
Is it possible to discover that super build that only those who know the secret handshake has access to, you betcha.
Some valid stuff here, especially the would ssg spend the money to invest in such a data researching hire(lol hopefully you werent pitching for the job). But you see, you validated my whole point, which was dont show them everything in a post about how to play a build or a video that shows them how to play the build, make them figure it out.

Which again is why i laugh at folks that use the whole they have access to the data theory. Yes they do but they dont want to spend the money to invest in figuring it out and they are hoping someone else is going to provide the info for then, hence why the forums are filled with people saying this or that needs to be nerfed.

Even with all the analytics, it wont show you what the skilled player used for tactics and did to avoid things altogether(ie these things wont show up in combat log).

Furthermore, even if they did have some educated analyst, one who even played the game and was fully aboe to disect the data, it is highly unlikely as a non elite player that they would have any good advice on how to properly nerf such said build without highly impacting so many other builds that cant take the nerf.

An FYI skilled players with gimpy toons can trounce content faster than the other 90% other players(joe schmoo players), so misleading data is easy to create. On the other hand, videos of how it is done are much more easily analyzed to give very accurate info and will 100% lead to nerfs.

Mic drop!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: DBZ
Top