changes to tumble BAD!

[pame12]

Quite simply, being able to reach places without Z (height) limitations, means you can break quest designed progressions. Then there's the issue of being able to break out into the Supermap and then reaching places you were never supposed to reach. Hence the limitation of the Jump skill to 40.

J1NG

I can see the issue of being able to break into the supermap, but I don't see an issue of "going to places you shouldn't on quests", isn't that the whole point of having high jump? To go to places you couldn't before?
"No because the devs didn't design the quests like that".
I don't agree with that at all, games are much better if you do stuff the devs didn't intend for, if it doesn't do anything too crazy like break you into the supermap.

Going back to the supermap, what if you just asked the community to help you out and report any supermap exploits in quests, then just add an invisible wall to those places? It's not like if you had jump 200+ you'd be able to jump all the way through an invisible wall? The game already has sky box invisible walls.

 

[J1NG]

I can see the issue of being able to break into the supermap, but I don't see an issue of "going to places you shouldn't on quests", isn't that the whole point of having high jump? To go to places you couldn't before?

And how will enemies be able to follow you when you jump up to a perch up 10 meters up and enemies have no way to reach you because they can't jump?

"No because the devs didn't design the quests like that".
I don't agree with that at all, games are much better if you do stuff the devs didn't intend for, if it doesn't do anything too crazy like break you into the supermap.

It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. It's simply how DDO quests is. Short of getting yourself a time machine, going back in time and then telling the original DDO Devs how BG3 was a unique success that they should try to replicate (and also keep better notes to pass down), the core of how DDO quests works will need adjustment for allowing "stuff that the devs didn't intend for" inside quests.

Going back to the supermap, what if you just asked the community to help you out and report any supermap exploits in quests, then just add an invisible wall to those places? It's not like if you had jump 200+ you'd be able to jump all the way through an invisible wall? The game already has sky box invisible walls.

You were here for the Multi-Curse thing weren't you? Did you hear much of a peep from players or the community until someone was disgruntled and posted about it?

If you've been here long enough, you'll know that is not going to be happening.

J1NG

 

[pame12]

And how will enemies be able to follow you when you jump up to a perch up 10 meters up and enemies have no way to reach you because they can't jump?

Either they don't, the devs introduce jumping to the enemies, or add in archer enemies at places where players can jump on rooftops. Like the one in whoodunit, there's archer enemies at the rooftops, that's good design, they should do more of that instead of placing packs of enemies around corridors.

It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. It's simply how DDO quests is. Short of getting yourself a time machine, going back in time and then telling the original DDO Devs how BG3 was a unique success that they should try to replicate (and also keep better notes to pass down), the core of how DDO quests works will need adjustment for allowing "stuff that the devs didn't intend for" inside quests.

Not really sure what you mean. In the demon defence quest in the marketplace, with high enough jump, you can jump on one of the ledges, and then you can use that to jump ontop of another ledge and just stay there while the mobs cluelesly walk around and keep firing at them. I thought that was pretty good design, they just need to tweak it by adding in more ranged waves and it'd be perfect I'd say.
There's other quests like that, in newcomer quest about freeing the ice dragon at the end from some wizard, there's a puzzle you could skip most of it if you had a dash ability and slowfall. Another brilliant design, being able to skip a puzzle using a character's build and some player experimentation.
There's other quests like that too, so what's your point? The quests had these cool quirks, maybe even moreso in the past, that got squished by wrong thinking, from either new devs, or the wrong fanbase complaining about what they don't know.

You were here for the Multi-Curse thing weren't you? Did you hear much of a peep from players or the community until someone was disgruntled and posted about it?

If you've been here long enough, you'll know that is not going to be happening.

Of course this isn't going to happen, it doesn't mean we can't discuss about better designs in the future for these type of game.
Or at the very least, hope...

 

[Eme]

it designing a game around unevolving AI. It's stale game development.

Players should be able to use their abilities, jump/ step etc, to do quests differently in some situations if they have the ability to do so.

Mobs SHOULD be able to jump to places, and climb ladders to follow etc if they have the ability to do so.

This is 2024, but feels like 1990's mob AI and level development.

 

[Nokowi]

To be accurate, many of us did try to speak with devs about interactions and challenge at the time of reaper creation. Dev's were not interested in what was fun or challenging at that time and in fact excluded the players most interested in this in their discussion. They has a 3 year dev ban on talking to players about agro mechanics.

There has been plenty of time to develop intelligent mob interactions but it has been very low priority as compared to selling the reaper power system. DDO is a game of spreadsheets and harnessing unintended synergies rather than one of maximizing interesting interactions. That choice was made at the time of reaper implementation.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

do you have any suggestions perhaps other ways to approach it ? It seems like most of us really would like to have it changed back.

Personally I'm quite happy with the "new tumble". My gripe, such as it was, was to add some charges, which they've now apparently done. So, beyond that I don't have any further suggestions, why would/should I?

 

[pame12]

They added +2 more charges based on tumble ranks.
Now we need to ask them to add in a few more charges sprinkled in on dex/agility based enhancements and we're golden.
Maybe even a +1 if you have a lvl in a dex/agility based class too.

 

[sweenjm]

Long time player, first time commenter. I really dislike the changes to tumble. Makes movement so much less fluid. I would have preferred no change at all to this mess. It greatly hinders mobility, especially in large and deadly mobs. I feel that tumble should be something used reflexively, rather than something you should worry about how many charges of it you have. I see it as severe hindrance to enjoyment of the game, and will probably stop me from playing at all. Perhaps some sort of stamina meter (that provides you with penalties when exhausted) rather than a hard limit. i would really prefer it be the way it always was.

 

[Toede]

There's no need for more charges than what they have added. If you spec for tumble, which someone should have to do if they want to effectively use it, the charges recharge fast enough that the four to six you have are more than enough to keep you tumbling except for one specific situation, which is the one in which brought the changes in the first place. There's no more pause. It is nice and fluid again. And no charge icons that you must hold block to see. It's great.

 

[pame12]

There's no need for more charges than what they have added. If you spec for tumble, which someone should have to do if they want to effectively use it, the charges recharge fast enough that the four to six you have are more than enough to keep you tumbling except for one specific situation, which is the one in which brought the changes in the first place. There's no more pause. It is nice and fluid again. And no charge icons that you must hold block to see. It's great.

Just a little bit more mate, I promise you it won't go badly.

 

[Phoenicis]

Character with 0 tumble.
Hold Block.
Press movement key.
You hop.
Press movement key again.
Hop again.
Press movement key again.
YOU DON'T MOVE!
THIS is STILL broken in my opinion.

Yes, this was checked after the update today.

I do like the tumble charge thing they added, fits perfectly under the focus orb, as long as it's position saves with '/ui layout save' I'll be happy with that.

 

[Toede]

Just a little bit more mate, I promise you it won't go badly.

Naw, if you need more tumble charges than what we currently have then you are trying to use the ability in a different way than what it is meant for. You can't possibly use that many charges back to back and still be considered engaging in combat. There is no need for more.

And yes, to the next poster, when you are out of tumble charges you have to wait for more before you can pseudo tumble again, and that includes durdle tanking. Frankly I'm surprised they allow you to do the hop with zero tumble. You should have to have at least one point spent. Why on earth do you need to hop around constantly like a rabbit anyway? There are valid uses of tumble for tanky types but they don't need to constantly be bouncing around. Use it strategically.

A person with no tumble skill shouldn't be able to use it as well as someone who can put points into it as a class skill. You're not supposed to be able to use it as well as a rogue, bard, or monk. Just like I can't get a high heal skill because I'm not a cleric, or how a mage has to cast a spell to increase their jump to something a fighter can do just by existing.

 

[Xaerxiessia]

Naw, if you need more tumble charges than what we currently have then you are trying to use the ability in a different way than what it is meant for. You can't possibly use that many charges back to back and still be considered engaging in combat. There is no need for more.

And yes, to the next poster, when you are out of tumble charges you have to wait for more before you can pseudo tumble again, and that includes durdle tanking. Frankly I'm surprised they allow you to do the hop with zero tumble. You should have to have at least one point spent. Why on earth do you need to hop around constantly like a rabbit anyway? There are valid uses of tumble for tanky types but they don't need to constantly be bouncing around. Use it strategically.

A person with no tumble skill shouldn't be able to use it as well as someone who can put points into it as a class skill. You're not supposed to be able to use it as well as a rogue, bard, or monk. Just like I can't get a high heal skill because I'm not a cleric, or how a mage has to cast a spell to increase their jump to something a fighter can do just by existing.

So , why is that not possible with the tumble spell ?

 

[Toede]

So , why is that not possible with the tumble spell ?

I don't know, ask Tonquin maybe. Seems to me that tumble spell should definitely give you a temporary charge for first, fifth, and ninth caster level similar to how jump gives +10 bonus at those caster levels. As it is now, the tumble spell has been rendered pretty useless with just the +10 but no charge. If they want tumble to only impact how far you can tumble, I'd say that's fair, but it should still provide similar increases to the jump spell.

 

[Eme]

the tumble really messes with lag, now. In a skelly's last night I was often doing one tumble, at the end of it I would instantly slide 6-7 times the distance again across the map and end up in the lava

 

[dur]

To add insult to injury: Why does my toon with Tumble n/a still get 2 charges?

Please just add a clickie, already. I cannot move the new tumble toolbar.

 

[WildJax]

you can thank all the people that abused it and used it as a run speed instead. Keep tumble where it is or nerf it so you are slowed for 2 seconds after tumbling ,

 

[Xaerxiessia]

To add insult to injury: Why does my toon with Tumble n/a still get 2 charges?

Please just add a clickie, already. I cannot move the new tumble toolbar.

I would not want to pour salt on the wound , but ..... (???)
Why on earth would you cry upon Tumble's remains in the first place if your rank in that very same skill is N/A ?
Though , I do not blame you for doing so, ..... on the contrary

 

[dur]

Why on earth would you cry upon Tumble's remains in the first place if your rank in that very same skill is N/A ?

I have 25 toons - 5 are dedicated banks, a handful have n/a tumble; all other have 8+ points.

* if the tumble change was to fix unintended consequences, and it's so much more useful now, why do I have 2 charges of this awesome skill with no training? If it's because of one of my stats, then take tumble off it's base status of n/a.

* denotes sarcasm

 

[KrakenSkullz]

Ya know, it's kinda funny that I've been playing since 2009 through every kind of change and nerf you can imagine but the tumble changes are the thing that caused me to finally cancel all 3 subs and I didn't even use tumble other than mindless rolling around while waiting on something. I think I'm just getting too old to deal with bs anymore.

These devs just cater to whoever is the loudest whiner on the forums/discord and over the years it's just become exhausting. "Ermahgerd! People are doing things I don't like in an MMO! I better cry about it on the forums to get it nerfed!"

It's the same thing over and over again throughout the years and it will never change.