Controversial: The DDO Parser, is it time?
- Thread starter Mordenkainen
- Start date
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
all i can say is bruh
Everyone that is decent at the game understands that different roles do different things and would be happy to play with a good bard. If they are blinded by the dps meter than they probably wouldn't be someone you want to play with anyways.
Also you brought up the new spec in wow that is a support class but did not do it justice. Yes for the first couple weeks people where surprised by its damage on the dps meters but all the top players knew it was good and eventually most players learned that. In fact since that support spec has been introduced it has been the number 1 meta spec in basically all pve content because it brings so much utility which is the exact opposite of what you are saying in your comment.
But the biggest reason why we will never get a dps meter in DDO is because the devs dont actually know what is good in the game and how to balance without using a sledgehammer. So many people would complain on the forums if they actually knew that their thf barbarian is only doing 40% of the dps of an optimized twf.
Shardrena
Well-known member
DPS meters aren't good for games though. Never have been, either.
What I've always found amusing is that people that min/max their DPS tend to forget little things like in-game actions by enemies and players not allowing their character to meet that full min/maxed potential very often. Burst damage is easy enough to optimize. But dps can't exactly be optimized as much as people think it can when they theorycraft.
EDIT:
Besides which, if any given enemy is going down in seconds flat, does it really matter what any the theoretical dps of any person in the group is? Even kill counts IMO aren't that good of an indicator of who's contributing in a quest. Maybe the rogue isn't leading the pack on the kill charts, but they've been taking out enemy casters and disabling traps. Sure that barbarian swinging a great axe (what's so great about it anyway?) around is leading in kill count, but the monk has been keeping party members alive long enough for the cleric to get to them, while also clearing things like curse and attribute damage, thus letting the cleric or favored soul focus on things other then clearing those conditions.
I remember a few times running the Underdark prelude chain's first quest where the main reason the party didn't wipe against the tigerman in the end fight was because I'd managed to land a Jade Tomb on it. Sure, I had the fewest kills in the group at the end. But there had been fewer deaths due to my Light finisher spam, and the main bosses in the quest kept just standing there helplessly while we wailed on them. Okay, while also taking reduced damage due to added DR, but still helpless.
What I've always found amusing is that people that min/max their DPS tend to forget little things like in-game actions by enemies and players not allowing their character to meet that full min/maxed potential very often. Burst damage is easy enough to optimize. But dps can't exactly be optimized as much as people think it can when they theorycraft.
EDIT:
Besides which, if any given enemy is going down in seconds flat, does it really matter what any the theoretical dps of any person in the group is? Even kill counts IMO aren't that good of an indicator of who's contributing in a quest. Maybe the rogue isn't leading the pack on the kill charts, but they've been taking out enemy casters and disabling traps. Sure that barbarian swinging a great axe (what's so great about it anyway?) around is leading in kill count, but the monk has been keeping party members alive long enough for the cleric to get to them, while also clearing things like curse and attribute damage, thus letting the cleric or favored soul focus on things other then clearing those conditions.
I remember a few times running the Underdark prelude chain's first quest where the main reason the party didn't wipe against the tigerman in the end fight was because I'd managed to land a Jade Tomb on it. Sure, I had the fewest kills in the group at the end. But there had been fewer deaths due to my Light finisher spam, and the main bosses in the quest kept just standing there helplessly while we wailed on them. Okay, while also taking reduced damage due to added DR, but still helpless.
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This is such a bad take. A tool and having more information is never a bad thing. It can help with testing so we can find out what is actually good in practice versus just being good in theory.
Also just about every top MMO has a dps meter and has millions of subscribers. So I think it's working out for them.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
you know, this was not something I thought I'd hear today that endgamers supposedly think.
(Ninja spy is considered as one of the worst trees in the game)
vryxnr
Well-known member
working out for them... because of parsers? or despite parsers?
When you have a large pool of people and you're looking for only the best of the best, making an exclusive club, to do specific things, yeah sure it works to help achieve that goal... not just by the numbers, but also by the attitudes it encourages.
I do not think a parser will make this small niche game grow in population.
So we know that DDO has a relatively small population, and we know that parsers create an environment of exclusion and elitism that separates populations into those able (allowed) to group for specific content and those left out... which games that already have "millions" of players can easily do because of their larger populations (and we know the above happens because this is exactly what happens in other games that have parsers). ...and we want to do this to the small DDO population?!
There are other (imo better) ways to encourage people to build better characters for doing harder content... you know, like talking with them about it, and actually encouraging them. Not "you numbers suck, here proof *points at parser*, get out! No come back until git gud!" *dances in exagerations*
vryxnr
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure that was an example of what type of talk/think parsers tend to create, not what is actually accurate in game at this moment.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
I don't think anyone would be confused about the effect of a good instant killer—they tend to be pretty damn obvious.
Can you share how you know this? Or is that just your personal opinion that you are trying to push?
There are tons of ways to tell how good a player is and it is obvious even without a dps meter to other good players.
Though it might not always be obvious for other players the dps meter could help them understand that they are lacking in something and give them a push to try and become a better player. This is more inline with my experience with dps meters that it is an opportunity to improve. A lot of the time the player with the lower dps will ask questions on how to improve rather than getting flamed by higher dps.
You guys seem to think that a dps meter could only be negative and arent even trying to see how it could make things better.
vryxnr
Well-known member
almost 20 years of experience and conversations about this topic across many games. Not just personally, but also the conversations of others on multiple forums for those games over the years as well.
While it is true that exclusion and elitism will exist regardless of the existence of a parser, in my experience they tend to increase exclusion and elitism, not reduce it... and from what I've seen in games that have them, they are not neutral to it either (an exception might be FF14, but there, any talk about parses resulted in you getting banned pretty quickly).
Like I said, if one's goal is to get the best of the best in your group only - assuming there are enough players - then it's one more tool to get that. But then only accepting the best of the best by definition means exclusion of others. And as I've already said, I'd rather build up as many people as possible in a way that allows them to actually enjoy playing while doing so.
Having a parser is yet another way for people to be divided into the elite and the not. Making it official gives those who are already prone to jerkish behavior a more valid/official justification to be jerkish towards others, while giving those who normally don't behave that way incentive to do so, especially if they are socially awkward and don't like using their words. Now they can point to the parser instead of actually talking about in game goals and performance like a human adult.
While it is true that exclusion and elitism will exist regardless of the existence of a parser, in my experience they tend to increase exclusion and elitism, not reduce it... and from what I've seen in games that have them, they are not neutral to it either (an exception might be FF14, but there, any talk about parses resulted in you getting banned pretty quickly).
Like I said, if one's goal is to get the best of the best in your group only - assuming there are enough players - then it's one more tool to get that. But then only accepting the best of the best by definition means exclusion of others. And as I've already said, I'd rather build up as many people as possible in a way that allows them to actually enjoy playing while doing so.
Having a parser is yet another way for people to be divided into the elite and the not. Making it official gives those who are already prone to jerkish behavior a more valid/official justification to be jerkish towards others, while giving those who normally don't behave that way incentive to do so, especially if they are socially awkward and don't like using their words. Now they can point to the parser instead of actually talking about in game goals and performance like a human adult.
It would be interesting to see. I'd be very curious to see how those statistics are compared between 2 individuals playing the same exact build.
Aside from all the various gear modifications, just something as simple as attack sequence and proper debuffing can change those statistics drastically.
I say let the djinni out.
Aside from all the various gear modifications, just something as simple as attack sequence and proper debuffing can change those statistics drastically.
I say let the djinni out.
vryxnr
Well-known member
On the other hand, I would love to see a better version of the combat log. Make it bigger, allow it to be exported, allow better filters on it (incoming damage only, for example, instead of the cluster of incoming damage + outgoing damage + incoming spells/heals/buffs refreshing every tick + outgoing spells/heals/buffs all at once).
The difference is one is still essentially self only (combat log) and is useful for self improvement, the other (parsers) are usually group wide and are very often used to judge others (moreso than people already do).
I get that on the surface it looks easier to be able to point at the parser and say "see!", rather than talking to them, talking about numbers in the combat log or on screen, and having a discussion about it... but reality is not so cut and dry. That extra time taken to talk about it while digging through the combat log actually makes a difference in how the person receiving the help actually receives and absorbs that information and that help. When ones only focus is on themselves, they are already motivated. When one is talking about others, the others need to be motivated to get that help, and they are more likely to be motivated when they are a part of the process of discovering the details. A parser removes them from that.
The difference is one is still essentially self only (combat log) and is useful for self improvement, the other (parsers) are usually group wide and are very often used to judge others (moreso than people already do).
I get that on the surface it looks easier to be able to point at the parser and say "see!", rather than talking to them, talking about numbers in the combat log or on screen, and having a discussion about it... but reality is not so cut and dry. That extra time taken to talk about it while digging through the combat log actually makes a difference in how the person receiving the help actually receives and absorbs that information and that help. When ones only focus is on themselves, they are already motivated. When one is talking about others, the others need to be motivated to get that help, and they are more likely to be motivated when they are a part of the process of discovering the details. A parser removes them from that.
FaceDancer
Olde Wurm
And that's the problem. While it could be useful as a tool, it could also be weaponized.
PraetorPlato
Well-known member
I mean, it's not like other people's DPS is remotely subtle in DDO—disparities between different chars are big enough that you can guess DPS to within ~20% pretty accurately, which is plenty. I don't think there's any particular need to see other people's parse results, but seeing your own DPS would be really nice (and players are always going to find a way to do it, so making it easier and standardized isn't crazy).
I do think the people who worry about being excluded from groups if parsers were involved should think about the groups they're in right now. I promise that if you think your DPS would be subpar on a parser, then high-DPS players know that your DPS is lower than yours and are fine with having you anyway. If you think they aren't aware, and you think they wouldn't be fine with it, then it's kind of an AH move to be in the group in the first place...
I do think the people who worry about being excluded from groups if parsers were involved should think about the groups they're in right now. I promise that if you think your DPS would be subpar on a parser, then high-DPS players know that your DPS is lower than yours and are fine with having you anyway. If you think they aren't aware, and you think they wouldn't be fine with it, then it's kind of an AH move to be in the group in the first place...
You are pretty spot on here.
Also people talking about the tool being used to divide the players dont understand that we already have better methods in game to do that. Guilds, private channels, and discords are all way better at dividing the elite players and the non elite players then any proposed parsers. But I doubt anyone is really against having guilds.