Is fixing a bug that caused a feature to over perform a nerf?

[Teh_Troll]

About a zillion years ago we were able to get Archers focus to work with melee. This was clearly broken, we knew it would get fixed, and I don't think anyone cried when it did.

This is just one example, the Legendary Shroud caster sticks that let you do like a zillion acid damage with magic missles is another example. Clearly broken, I don't recall anyone complaining when it was fixed.

I also remember when the barbarian past life got fixed, and the devs on the forums mentioned for months that it was broken, people lost their minds.

Just curious as to other people's thoughts on this.

 

[Spook]

Of course its a nerf - doesnt mean its unwarranted or unjustified

 

[Teh_Troll]

Of course its a nerf - doesnt mean its unwarranted or unjustified

That's a fair take.

 

[DBZ]

You mean like time stop building around cheese no its not same with u59 weirdness if they ever figure it out fix it again

 

[Kryxal]

It's when the OP thing compensates for other things being UP and it gets nerfed, that you see uproars.

 

[seph1roth5]

Depends on how long the bug was out I think. If it's generally soon after the bug ocurred, it's a fix. If it's many months/years later, it's a nerf.

Kind of like how master's gift was unbound for so long, everyone just took it as WAI. Then when it was change to btc suddenly many people got very annoyed. So much so that it was changed back.

Or like the elemental resist shrines. While not a bug, they had mentioned several years before their removal that they weren't intended to be in the game forever (or something along those lines), but it took so long to actually be taken out that it felt like a nerf. Especially with the post-HC timing heh. Ya ya I know they said it wasn't because of HC at all, but the timing...

 

[axel15810]

I also think it depends on how long the bug is left unaddressed. If it's a few months or less I'd tend to view it as a fix. If the devs let it go for 6 months, a year, many years, etc. then I'd tend to view it as a nerf. Not that they shouldn't fix things that aren't WAI, but ideally they'd be fixed before the playerbase has built around it and the thing working the way it does is normalized.

 

[Stratiotis]

Eventually they'll nerf ladders...

 

[Lazuli]

Depends on how long the bug was out I think. If it's generally soon after the bug ocurred, it's a fix. If it's many months/years later, it's a nerf.

Kind of like how master's gift was unbound for so long, everyone just took it as WAI. Then when it was change to btc suddenly many people got very annoyed. So much so that it was changed back.

I also think it depends on how long the bug is left unaddressed. If it's a few months or less I'd tend to view it as a fix. If the devs let it go for 6 months, a year, many years, etc. then I'd tend to view it as a nerf. Not that they shouldn't fix things that aren't WAI, but ideally they'd be fixed before the playerbase has built around it and the thing working the way it does is normalized.

This. Time matters. A bug can't be left around so long that people get used to it and build around it.Depends on how long the bug was out I think.

Or like the elemental resist shrines. While not a bug, they had mentioned several years before their removal that they weren't intended to be in the game forever (or something along those lines), but it took so long to actually be taken out that it felt like a nerf. Especially with the post-HC timing heh. Ya ya I know they said it wasn't because of HC at all, but the timing...

No. This is not the same. The shrines were not a bug. They were created that way by the initial devs, and then other devs came along who decided they didn't like it and eliminated them. These are design changes that should be avoided at all costs. When a company is unable to maintain a coherent design and only knows how to give and take away, it loses all the trust of its customers.

Another example of this is the Ravenloft Belt with enhancement spellpower, or Mortal Fear. They put them in to sell, they removed them on a whim later because it got in the way of their future designs. This is bad design. If you know something is OP, you don't create it in the first place. If despite your precautions something gives you problems later, change it in a sensible way instead of making it useless. Mortal fear could have had a cap on the damage. The belts could have been changed to insightful spellpower. But no, make them useless, and people will get angry. Justly.

 

[Ying]

I also think it depends on how long the bug is left unaddressed. If it's a few months or less I'd tend to view it as a fix. If the devs let it go for 6 months, a year, many years, etc. then I'd tend to view it as a nerf. Not that they shouldn't fix things that aren't WAI, but ideally they'd be fixed before the playerbase has built around it and the thing working the way it does is normalized.

There was a recent silent fix with Scion of Arborea overperforming that has literally been around for a decade. No one considers that a nerf.

For many years, trance insightful damage used to stack with insightful deadly gear. It took several years for a dev to post that's not WAI, and then just as long for it to get fixed. Was that a nerf? I don't really care either way. I just play the game as it is.

 

[Geezer]

Well, the devs "fixed" a level 1 spell that had been around for what, 11 or 12 years because a player complained about it being op?
Then theres the ratcatcher, another item that was around for many many years and was really useless until the devs created the inquisitive tree which made it extremely useful, then BANG! out comes the nerf bat

 

[jotmon]

Not everything fixed is a nerf.
When something is adjusted to work properly and is still useful to players then i would not call it a nerf..
When something useful becomes worthless I would call it a nerf.

 

[Lazuli]

Not everything fixed is a nerf.
When something is adjusted to work properly and is still useful to players then i would not call it a nerf..
When something useful becomes worthless I would call it a nerf.

This. This is what I was referring to before.

Unfortunately these devs have a recognized tendency towards making things useless. And just in case someone finds a residual use for them, they nuke them from orbit just to be safe xD.

 

[unbongwah]

Fixing a beneficial bug is a nerf in the same way that fixing a deleterious bug is a buff. No one should be surprised by either, but one category of bug-fixes draws a lot more player ire than the other.

The frustrating thing is you can never predict how long a bug will take to be fixed. Some bugs are hotfixed right away; others linger for years, to the point where players rely on them to work - until one day they don't. Sometimes these bugs are fixed without fanfare and maybe without devs acknowledging the bug existed in the first place. Other times these bugfixes are part of a total revamp, such as when the bugs with shapeshifting were finally fixed with the druid overhaul in Update 38 and the devs gave existing druids a free +3 Lesser Heart, a tacit admission that everyone had previously relied on bug exploits to get good DPS from melee druids. Players relied on Adrenaline working with ranged weapons for so long, SSG had to concede they couldn't fix that bug without "breaking" epic ranged DPS builds; so they waited until the U51 Epic Destiny revamp to finally fix Adrenaline while adding Hunt's End to replace it as "ranged Adrenaline."

Personally not only do I avoid basing my builds on known bugs, I also avoid basing them on things which feel too "gimmicky" that might be nerfed at any moment. E.g., I understand the rationale behind all those "warlock splash + Arcane Warrior" melee builds; but a small change in how Eldritch Aura and/or Arcane Warrior works will leave a bunch of minmaxers with an useless warlock splash. My builds will never top the DPS charts, but I daresay I don't have to delete my builds nor Reincarnate my toons as often as the "Flavor of the Month" chasers do, either.

 

[Lazuli]

There was a recent silent fix with Scion of Arborea overperforming that has literally been around for a decade. No one considers that a nerf.

For many years, trance insightful damage used to stack with insightful deadly gear. It took several years for a dev to post that's not WAI, and then just as long for it to get fixed. Was that a nerf? I don't really care either way. I just play the game as it is.

Those are small changes that don't break builds. But many times their nerfs are more than "small changes." For many people, changing their builds is problematic. They don't want to do TR/lesser reincarnation. They don't want to waste resources like jeweler/sentient toolkits /hearts. That's right. It shouldn't be necessary to make all those major changes.

That they also ruin a build that you like and to which you have dedicated time and effort feels very bad.

 

[saekee]

No, it is an awkwardly retaken gift mistake.

 

[Ying]

So was the Inquisitive change in early 2020 a "nerf" or a "balance adjustment"? It was 8 months after they released it. Devs claimed they spent 100 hours playtesting it prior to release.

 

[Lazuli]

So was the Inquisitive change in early 2020 a "nerf" or a "balance adjustment"? It was 8 months after they released it. Devs claimed they spent 100 hours playtesting it prior to release.

It was a nerf. If they had done it properly, he could still be considered a balance, but as usual they overnerf it, so it's hardly a "balance."

 

[Theo]

2 things ....
1) did they tell us when it was discovered/posted/known it is not wai

I have seen several things that have worked and posted on the forums & they say nothing then poof one day its "fixed"​

2) how much time has passed

there have been things that have been some way for years if not a decade and yea they said they were going to fix it .. but ...​

x) bonus .... did they take it from above average to useless ..... . ... .. .. . . .. . . . . . . . .

 

[I dont Like gimps]

About a zillion years ago we were able to get Archers focus to work with melee. This was clearly broken, we knew it would get fixed, and I don't think anyone cried when it did.

This is just one example, the Legendary Shroud caster sticks that let you do like a zillion acid damage with magic missles is another example. Clearly broken, I don't recall anyone complaining when it was fixed.

I also remember when the barbarian past life got fixed, and the devs on the forums mentioned for months that it was broken, people lost their minds.

Just curious as to other people's thoughts on this.

its funny How the acid dmg from MM was fixed but ruin is still broken (if u know u know if I dive deeper into this Imma get a forum ban allready got 1week for openly talking about what is broken)