The DPS chase is a failure in monster design...
- Thread starter Elminster
- Start date
Lazuli
Well-known member
Yes and no. Quest design (and even more so, raid design) is largely to blame, but the devs have added a series of additional immunities to the monsters to those that already exist in D&D that make everything that is not dps, is of second category.
D&D already has enough immunities to balance out the monsters, they didn't need to add even more.
And then there is that any non-dps option that the characters have that is effective is going to be nerfed from orbit sooner rather than later, so in the end we have... that dps is the only thing that universally serves you to finish a quest.
saekee
long live ROGUE
I think that is a fair point. So off the top of my head we have—instead of dps:
1) instakill
2) avoidance (stealth, skill checks, alternate paths to quest completion)
3) charm/domination/CC
4) Sequence of killing (like in Pilgrim’s Peril or Fall of Truth)
5) Some external factor protecting things (like a crystal that needs to be taken out, or a puzzle, like Stormreaver stuff)
6) DR of some kind (again Illithid quests are a good example in which the psionic champs have force vulnerability)
7) Total resistance to certain elements or forms of attack (missile deflection, fire immune, etc)
Can people build on this—modify and add some numbers?
My favorite of these is #2 like in Under the Cover of Darkness or Claw of Vulkoor.
Monkey_Archer
Well-known member
AOE CC and helpless damage trumps dps in the vast majority of DDO content. DPS chasing is almost entirely relegated to raiding.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
The OP often complains about not being able to solo stuff on melee; if they're not applying CC effects like cower/etc. and only chasing DPS instead of a mix of survival stats, CC, and DPS then it explains why they have issues. Even in raids only some people are on DPS duty, while others are filling in needed roles to let those DPS go to town.
Blerkington
Well-known member
I am still waiting for the big reveal that this account's talking points are generated by ChatGPT or some other AI.
really depends on the content. In R10's it's hard to keep up with your insta killers.
Isint DPS the point of the content tho? You're killing mobs... If you're chasing after someone who is faster and has more dps, could it be your build?
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
nerf casters
Ahpuch
Well-known member
AI? Maybe AS? These polls make me doubt the first choice. For now I am going with this unlisted option:
Trust the Developers. They know more than you think and most importantly are unbiased.
I think the real problem is that every raid and even most quests need to end with a big bad that has to be killed. In most cases, that big bad is just a straight dps rush, although sometimes there's other mechanics that limit or stagger the process.
I think that to fix this, there would need to be end fights where the final win condition is something beside "kill big bad boss". Reaver's Fate is close, although it really only needs two people for the final sequence and not the whole party. The end of Monastery of the Scorpion is another example of an end fight in this vein; although again, only needs one or two people to complete. The Kobold Island Cannith challenges are another similar example, as is the Dryad raid.
Big boss fights generally do a good job of letting everyone feel like they're contributing, especially since we can't track party dps in-game, so I can see why they're the modus operandi for finishing an adventure. I would just like to see other ways to have a whole party be involved in finishing a quest via solving a puzzle or managing multiple objectives, rather than just killing the boss.
I think that to fix this, there would need to be end fights where the final win condition is something beside "kill big bad boss". Reaver's Fate is close, although it really only needs two people for the final sequence and not the whole party. The end of Monastery of the Scorpion is another example of an end fight in this vein; although again, only needs one or two people to complete. The Kobold Island Cannith challenges are another similar example, as is the Dryad raid.
Big boss fights generally do a good job of letting everyone feel like they're contributing, especially since we can't track party dps in-game, so I can see why they're the modus operandi for finishing an adventure. I would just like to see other ways to have a whole party be involved in finishing a quest via solving a puzzle or managing multiple objectives, rather than just killing the boss.
Sophie The Cat Burglar
Exotic Items Recovery Specialist
While I enjoy making fun of Elminster as much as the next adventurer, *sets Elminster's beard on fire*, varied quest encounters definitely make the game more fun. Usually.
Quest encounters Sophie do not want:
1) Doing it wrong results in instant death - No way. Nu uh. Not doin it. Goin home.
2) Even after looking up the encounter, it still makes no sense - Okay. I tried. Leaving. I'll try again in 5 years.
3) Jumping courses with lag and no alternate route - Hey! Darn it! What the? QUIT LAGGING ME!
4) Really difficult puzzles - That didn't work. That didn't work. That didn't work. *one hour later* That didn't work. Okay. Leaving. This one is a skip.
5) Requires a hire to do pretty much anything - Mr. Gladwin, I told you to stand HERE and pull THIS LEVER but you keep running back to me which is exactly WHAT I TOLD YOU NOT TO DO. Why? Why are you doing this to me? For the 37th time?
Good Quest Encounters
01) Attacking a main enemy causes minions to appear at certain damage thresholds (Subversion; end fight)
02) Enemy becomes invulnerable and calls out a major attack (Eternity; Eternity)
03) Enemy cannot be damaged unless a dohicky is recovered and used to turn off invulnerability (Stormcleave Outpost, end fight)
04) Enemy cannot be damaged until a puzzle is solved (Tempest's Spine, end fight)
05) Enemy cannot be damaged until someone is killed (Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords; end fight)
06) Enemy does a lot of damage but triggering an explosion stuns him (Swim at Your Own Risk; Thousand Teeth)
07) Enemy has increased defense and offense unless fought in a specific place (Temple of Elemental Part II; end fight)
08) One member of a pack substantially heals all the rest
09) One member of a pack substantially protects all the rest
10) Solving complex puzzle bypasses major enemy (Ghost of a Chance; heroic jail room)
I am getting bored.
How about making a thread suggesting fun, new quest encounters that do not yet appear in DDO? Instead of making another complainy thread, make a helpfuly thread. Start with a list of good quest encounters like the one above, then add new ones. Then, when it gets ignored, Elminster can make another compainy thread!
Sophie the Cat Burglar: *sets Elminster's beard on fire again* This never gets old.
Vexa the Dagger: He smells like ale and old ale and burnt ale and wet cardboard.
Elminster: I must insist that you two ladies stop setting my beard on fire.
Sophie the Cat Burglar: Okay. *sets Elminster's beard on fire*
Elminster: *sighs and throws some coins on the ground*
Sophie the Cat Burglar: SHINIES!
Quest encounters Sophie do not want:
1) Doing it wrong results in instant death - No way. Nu uh. Not doin it. Goin home.
2) Even after looking up the encounter, it still makes no sense - Okay. I tried. Leaving. I'll try again in 5 years.
3) Jumping courses with lag and no alternate route - Hey! Darn it! What the? QUIT LAGGING ME!
4) Really difficult puzzles - That didn't work. That didn't work. That didn't work. *one hour later* That didn't work. Okay. Leaving. This one is a skip.
5) Requires a hire to do pretty much anything - Mr. Gladwin, I told you to stand HERE and pull THIS LEVER but you keep running back to me which is exactly WHAT I TOLD YOU NOT TO DO. Why? Why are you doing this to me? For the 37th time?
Good Quest Encounters
01) Attacking a main enemy causes minions to appear at certain damage thresholds (Subversion; end fight)
02) Enemy becomes invulnerable and calls out a major attack (Eternity; Eternity)
03) Enemy cannot be damaged unless a dohicky is recovered and used to turn off invulnerability (Stormcleave Outpost, end fight)
04) Enemy cannot be damaged until a puzzle is solved (Tempest's Spine, end fight)
05) Enemy cannot be damaged until someone is killed (Assault on the Aerie of the Slave Lords; end fight)
06) Enemy does a lot of damage but triggering an explosion stuns him (Swim at Your Own Risk; Thousand Teeth)
07) Enemy has increased defense and offense unless fought in a specific place (Temple of Elemental Part II; end fight)
08) One member of a pack substantially heals all the rest
09) One member of a pack substantially protects all the rest
10) Solving complex puzzle bypasses major enemy (Ghost of a Chance; heroic jail room)
I am getting bored.
How about making a thread suggesting fun, new quest encounters that do not yet appear in DDO? Instead of making another complainy thread, make a helpfuly thread. Start with a list of good quest encounters like the one above, then add new ones. Then, when it gets ignored, Elminster can make another compainy thread!
Sophie the Cat Burglar: *sets Elminster's beard on fire again* This never gets old.
Vexa the Dagger: He smells like ale and old ale and burnt ale and wet cardboard.
Elminster: I must insist that you two ladies stop setting my beard on fire.
Sophie the Cat Burglar: Okay. *sets Elminster's beard on fire*
Elminster: *sighs and throws some coins on the ground*
Sophie the Cat Burglar: SHINIES!
Last edited:
Well every adventure game, fps, moba etc (even some racing games - Rock 'n' roll Racing) is about killing or each other or killing stuff.
with that in mind:
I think the engine that runs our game can't recive a lot of improvements. Like, imagine some kinda score like devilmay cry, where you can chain hits and abilities and skills and recive a score based on that.
We can't make double abilities to combo with party members (like Chrono Trigger);
So we can can max bring some combat rules, like mrr, prr, elemental dmg, dodges, and puzzles.
As i player i understand that we have an algoritm going on that is:
- if:
possible o instakill,
return instakll;
-elif:
possible to cc
return cc
-else:
intimidate/kite/brute dps
maybe adding more monters 'weak spots' like, only vulnerable to certain dmg on back or legs or something. But will make a mess on enemy code.
with that in mind:
I think the engine that runs our game can't recive a lot of improvements. Like, imagine some kinda score like devilmay cry, where you can chain hits and abilities and skills and recive a score based on that.
We can't make double abilities to combo with party members (like Chrono Trigger);
So we can can max bring some combat rules, like mrr, prr, elemental dmg, dodges, and puzzles.
As i player i understand that we have an algoritm going on that is:
- if:
possible o instakill,
return instakll;
-elif:
possible to cc
return cc
-else:
intimidate/kite/brute dps
maybe adding more monters 'weak spots' like, only vulnerable to certain dmg on back or legs or something. But will make a mess on enemy code.
Last edited:
saekee
long live ROGUE
This is why Claw of Vulkoor remains one of my favorite quests. You can sneak it easily or hack your way through. Reaper made it tougher to sneak, sadly.
This is also why I was asking Tilo how I might come up with some kind of DoT for stealthy toons, and he had already nailed it with ki bolt. So sneak a quest, ki bolt reds.