To SSG; The endgame and the mountain we climb

[EinarMal]

I agree and I think it is solvable with some changes that will still make playing the game part of it.

1. Grant Racial (Or Iconic) + Class + Epic past life for reincarnating at 30 (get credit for all 3 each life)
2. Flip the order of Racial bonuses on past life
3. Remove penalty on heroic XP use 1st life progression
4. Change Otto to 999 TP (my guess is that SSG would make more money as way more people would buy at a reduced price)

 

[Scrag]

I mentioned in the most recent survey they have going that I wouldn't recommend the game due to the high cost of continuing to play the game once on board and the over reliance of thought process (if you want to reach end game full build/completionist in what a modern game would class) that more grind is needed.

The last thing this game is more grind for PL's, what it needs is a better though process of how to retain end game players - events, changing of reaper, playing for prestige in the form of really nice cosmetics, badges, pins to show next your name is the better way to do this. Most (not all) gamers change between multiple games and SSG I believe realise this but adding more grind doesn't make this game more appealing to play.

I gave it 3 stars for recommendation.

1. It is too expensive.
2. Inventory is a bunch of stupid
3. I no longer play any heroic chars (iconics only) because I cannot afford to mule heroic gear, plus epic gear, plus legendary gear.
4. Banktoons drive me insane. I have 3.5 banktoons, because that is all I can really handle.
5. I gave up on alts. This game really isn't alt friendly, so you are locked into endless tr, etr, or itr, or all of the above.

I would like to have multiple characters at different levels with different playstyles, but that is just unfeasible. Especially when raid gear is all BtC. There is zero incentive to run a raid on anything other than a main.

 

[Lazuli]

Interesting view. I prefer the low level game. To me, the quests are better (more in keeping with the ideas of D&D) and my character is REALLY powerful at low levels. All those little past life bonuses make a significant difference at level 2, and much less difference at level 32.

As I said in my post, there are people who prefer heroic over epic, that's a matter of taste. In reference to character power, you may feel more powerful at low levels, but for many builds this is not the case, because they lack the skills that define their way of playing. Those people (myself included) feel that at low levels the characters are too limited for our tastes.

But that is a matter of taste, and all tastes are respectable. We were talking about ease of grouping, and why it is easier to group on epics than on heroics. The answer to this - a combination of factors and not just one - is in my previous post, which is not intended to be an apology for the epic game.

 

[Lazuli]

I would like to have multiple characters at different levels with different playstyles, but that is just unfeasible. Especially when raid gear is all BtC. There is zero incentive to run a raid on anything other than a main.

Runes have helped with this. But alts are very penalized, yeah.

 

[Jummby]

I agree and I think it is solvable with some changes that will still make playing the game part of it.

1. Grant Racial (Or Iconic) + Class + Epic past life for reincarnating at 30 (get credit for all 3 each life)
2. Flip the order of Racial bonuses on past life
3. Remove penalty on heroic XP use 1st life progression
4. Change Otto to 999 TP (my guess is that SSG would make more money as way more people would buy at a reduced price)

Item 4:

Change Otto to 999 TP (my guess is that SSG would make more money as way more people would buy at a reduced price)

This is normally basic economics, but not on the free to play economy.

The Free to play economy is Casher and Whale driven. They would actually hurt themselves since people who will be buying Ottos Boxes at 999 DDO points would have just bought them anyway for the 5000 DDO points.

 

[Lazuli]

I agree and I think it is solvable with some changes that will still make playing the game part of it.

1. Grant Racial (Or Iconic) + Class + Epic past life for reincarnating at 30 (get credit for all 3 each life)
2. Flip the order of Racial bonuses on past life
3. Remove penalty on heroic XP use 1st life progression
4. Change Otto to 999 TP (my guess is that SSG would make more money as way more people would buy at a reduced price)

Point 4 has no chance of being considered by the devs. The other three could be considered by the devs and would really help. Even the second life progression would be a help and it's probably more realistic to ask for this.

I don't think this would hurt the sale of Otto's box, because those who pay for the boxes don't want to waste time playing a PL, even if it takes less time. Now there are people paying for hearts, although getting the tokens is a half-hour grind (one hour if you are not fast).

 

[TedSandyman]

I mentioned in the most recent survey they have going that I wouldn't recommend the game due to the high cost of continuing to play the game once on board and the over reliance of thought process (if you want to reach end game full build/completionist in what a modern game would class) that more grind is needed.

The last thing this game is more grind for PL's, what it needs is a better though process of how to retain end game players - events, changing of reaper, playing for prestige in the form of really nice cosmetics, badges, pins to show next your name is the better way to do this. Most (not all) gamers change between multiple games and SSG I believe realise this but adding more grind doesn't make this game more appealing to play.

I couldn't agree with your sentiment more.

But, in my opinion, it isn't the GRIND that is the problem. It is having a game full of over the top builds that require the massive grind.

These stupidly powerful builds require so much investment in time and/or money are the only way to play the game. Unless you are OK to solo that is.

The problem IS endgame.

New players have two options. Run behind people in these dungeons for six months to a year, or more, and soak up free XP until they are strong enough to really be able to contribute. Or new players can play solo, in which case they will probably NEVER earn XPs quick enough to be useful in a group. Either way, they will quit from frustration long before getting powerful enough to really contribute.

Why wouldn't I recommend this game? It is because it will take massive amounts of time and/or money to get a powerful enough toon to really enjoy the game as it is now. There is the option to solo, of course. I personally am OK with soloing. I am a long time player and soloing is really the only reason I still play the game.

Endgame players will probably be the reason this long time player finally quits the game.

I don't enjoy ONLY grinding XP faster and faster and faster. I don't enjoy running with groups that simply kill everything in a room in one shot. Where is the challenge or the fun in sprinting to the end of a dungeon hour after hour? If the solution to the problem is to allow new players to become one shot killers faster, it will be the end of the game. You will have new players simply getting very bored very fast. You will alienate all the old players who DID grind for their power.

There is a new D&D game out now and it is massively popular simply because it is challenging. It is popular because you do have to plan and strategize. You have to buff and swap gear and change how you approach individual fights. It is a far cry from the kill everything in one shot mentality of this game.

Why do you think hardcore is so popular? It is because you start over with nothing and have to fight for every advantage, every platinum piece, and every piece of gear. Hardcore is what this game was like 10 years ago when there was some challenge and fun to the game. That is why hardcore is so popular. Many people rail against hardcore because it drops the server population. Yes, it drops the server population because that many people enjoy it.

The popularity of hardcore is an indication of exactly the desire of many to get away from the endgame super builds. Why do all of the servers suffer when hardcore is around? It is because hardcore IS popular. Endgamers just sit around, alone waiting for the day hardcore is over so they can get people to play with again. The sad part is hardcore is easily 10 times more fun than endgame play. And the large number of people who flock to hardcore is a true indication of what people find fun in this game.

 

[Lazuli]

Why do you think hardcore is so popular? It is because you start over with nothing and have to fight for every advantage, every platinum piece, and every piece of gear. Hardcore is what this game was like 10 years ago when there was some challenge and fun to the game. That is why hardcore is so popular. Many people rail against hardcore because it drops the server population. Yes, it drops the server population because that many people enjoy it.

Hardcore is popular for a variety of reasons. I only play it because I want the cosmetics, not because I like the playstyle or playing a weak character. I know many people who think like me.

There are people who like the greater grouping opportunities on hc. The population has decreased greatly on normal servers. Many have told me, they play hc for the grouping, not because they are enthusiastic about the style.

Others like the risk.

Others like that everyone starts with the same power level.

I am very afraid that those who imagine that a permanent HC server would be super popular do not realize that not everyone who plays on HC does so for the same reason, and it would not have the same population that temporary HCs have now. In any case, statements like yours are very simplistic. No, that's not the reason it's so popular. It is one of the reasons that attracts a certain segment of the population to HC. There are others, and there are people playing it who even don't like it because they want the cosmetics.

 

[Col Kurtz]

I agree and I think it is solvable with some changes that will still make playing the game part of it.

1. Grant Racial (Or Iconic) + Class + Epic past life for reincarnating at 30 (get credit for all 3 each life)
2. Flip the order of Racial bonuses on past life
3. Remove penalty on heroic XP use 1st life progression
4. Change Otto to 999 TP (my guess is that SSG would make more money as way more people would buy at a reduced price)

if SSG wants to see a pop in online player numbers and possible revenue> grant ViP's a racial PL + their class PL when they heroic TR...cut the grind a bit and make ViP worth spending $ on.

 

[rabidfox]

These stupidly powerful builds require so much investment in time and/or money are the only way to play the game. Unless you are OK to solo that is.

The problem IS endgame.

New players have two options. Run behind people in these dungeons for six months to a year, or more, and soak up free XP until they are strong enough to really be able to contribute. Or new players can play solo, in which case they will probably NEVER earn XPs quick enough to be useful in a group. Either way, they will quit from frustration long before getting powerful enough to really contribute.

Why wouldn't I recommend this game? It is because it will take massive amounts of time and/or money to get a powerful enough toon to really enjoy the game as it is now. There is the option to solo, of course. I personally am OK with soloing. I am a long time player and soloing is really the only reason I still play the game.

Endgame players will probably be the reason this long time player finally quits the game.

This is a fallacy that I find scares away some new players. 1st lifers can tear thru quests and run all the content in the game. I've run characters on HC that can dance circles around players' mains on live. It's not all about past lives (they help, but they're not the end all, be all), it's that I know the game like the back of my hand and know how to build and gear strong characters. There's no endgame in DDO per se; one runs the same content on a total completionist as one runs as a new player, just the difficulty may be turned up (and most players will never actually turn the difficulty all the way up with push raiding).
People run flavor builds that are poorly geared. One problem is people don't know their characters are poorly geared. They're used to conventional MMOs where raid gear is best in slot; in DDO, maybe a couple raid items will be good for a build but most solid tetris involves gear from various quests and not raids. Equipping too many raid items will generally result in poor stats. Stacking all the various sources of stats in DDO is complex, it's not easy to do, so it's no wonder many people have issues with it. Sure, there's power to be had to past lives (that's just a fact), but people get so caught up on needing those past lives that they miss the easy goals of min/maxing their current life's build and gear.

 

[Mordenkainen]

Always wondered if you had infinite Otto's boxes how long will it take to get ALL the past lives? Including the bit that it takes to actually quest because the Otto's doesn't quite cover everything.

 

[Oliphant]

My question was why do they enforce xp penalties in heroics to force grouping so narrowly but completely throw that out for epics? Being able to group easily in epics is the main attraction of epics. They should dramatically relax power leveling penalties in heroics. Let JRR Tolkien have his mixed parties with novice hobbits, heroic veterans, a chosen one or two in the mix, and a demi-god.

 

[Shear-buckler]

...people get so caught up on needing those past lives that they miss the easy goals of min/maxing their current life's build and gear.

It's not about "need". That people want to complete a clearly laid out and straight forward progression system in a progression based game is to be expected. If that is a 5+ year grind they will just do it in another game instead.

 

[T.O.]

You have mentioned this xp nerf a few times now. I am still wondering when this happened? My xp spreadsheet didn't show any nerf. Instead showed a increase in some quests because of the lowering of requirement for conquest. But keep going on about it. You do you.
I never added quest's to my 1-20 list to make up for this loss of xp. It actually reduced the number.

 

[Speed]

If I'm not enjoying the game, I'm not playing it.

Not chasing gear, or stat increases, or anything really ... is a big change in mentality.

It's not all about past lives (they help, but they're not the end all, be all), it's that I know the game like the back of my hand and know how to build and gear strong characters.

Sure, there's power to be had to past lives (that's just a fact), but people get so caught up on needing those past lives that they miss the easy goals of min/maxing their current life's build and gear.

Exactly.
I agree.

I see no problem, because players decide how they play.
People can always keep playing first lifers on R1 or elite to just have fun instead of forcing themselves to farm past lives to later actually degrade what they earned with "higher difficulty".

You already played all races and classes too many times, so TR is at least some goal?
Thats ok, but how interesting and enjoyable is repeating the same quests over and over?
I registered around 2010 and had many breaks because of this and no TR progression illusion loop can change that.
You can use your free time to enjoy various other games (like Pathfinder 1-2, BG3, Knights Of The Chalice 2, Deadfire, Original Sin 2, Planescape Torment 1, Temple Of Elemental Evil, Elder Scrolls 3-5) unless you are truly having fun with being a farmer of repetition.
I very like this game, so I return often (usually with veteran status level 4 to have more starting variety with things that I can use, but no past lives, tomes, reaper tree, btc gear, ship buffs) to play it normally like other titles, but additionally for social fun with friends and random players on R1, not for +1 parameter.

In short, play the game, do not let the game play you.

 

[Sheikra]

I couldn't agree with your sentiment more.

But, in my opinion, it isn't the GRIND that is the problem. It is having a game full of over the top builds that require the massive grind.

These stupidly powerful builds require so much investment in time and/or money are the only way to play the game. Unless you are OK to solo that is.

The problem IS endgame.

New players have two options. Run behind people in these dungeons for six months to a year, or more, and soak up free XP until they are strong enough to really be able to contribute. Or new players can play solo, in which case they will probably NEVER earn XPs quick enough to be useful in a group. Either way, they will quit from frustration long before getting powerful enough to really contribute.

Why wouldn't I recommend this game? It is because it will take massive amounts of time and/or money to get a powerful enough toon to really enjoy the game as it is now. There is the option to solo, of course. I personally am OK with soloing. I am a long time player and soloing is really the only reason I still play the game.

Endgame players will probably be the reason this long time player finally quits the game.

I don't enjoy ONLY grinding XP faster and faster and faster. I don't enjoy running with groups that simply kill everything in a room in one shot. Where is the challenge or the fun in sprinting to the end of a dungeon hour after hour? If the solution to the problem is to allow new players to become one shot killers faster, it will be the end of the game. You will have new players simply getting very bored very fast. You will alienate all the old players who DID grind for their power.

There is a new D&D game out now and it is massively popular simply because it is challenging. It is popular because you do have to plan and strategize. You have to buff and swap gear and change how you approach individual fights. It is a far cry from the kill everything in one shot mentality of this game.

Why do you think hardcore is so popular? It is because you start over with nothing and have to fight for every advantage, every platinum piece, and every piece of gear. Hardcore is what this game was like 10 years ago when there was some challenge and fun to the game. That is why hardcore is so popular. Many people rail against hardcore because it drops the server population. Yes, it drops the server population because that many people enjoy it.

The popularity of hardcore is an indication of exactly the desire of many to get away from the endgame super builds. Why do all of the servers suffer when hardcore is around? It is because hardcore IS popular. Endgamers just sit around, alone waiting for the day hardcore is over so they can get people to play with again. The sad part is hardcore is easily 10 times more fun than endgame play. And the large number of people who flock to hardcore is a true indication of what people find fun in this game.

Would you have more fun if you ran higher difficulty when leveling? I was getting bored of zerging through content so I took a life and did everything r6+ starting at level 3 quests. Got a few first life friends who joined me, and it was super fun!

Also you don't need 100s of lives to be strong enough to play endgame. I know several players, including myself, who play characters with very few or zero past lives to great effect in endgame content (without raid gear / full filigreefiligree even).

 

[Col Kurtz]

This is a fallacy that I find scares away some new players. 1st lifers can tear thru quests and run all the content in the game. I've run characters on HC that can dance circles around players' mains on live. It's not all about past lives (they help, but they're not the end all, be all), it's that I know the game like the back of my hand and know how to build and gear strong characters. There's no endgame in DDO per se; one runs the same content on a total completionist as one runs as a new player, just the difficulty may be turned up (and most players will never actually turn the difficulty all the way up with push raiding).
People run flavor builds that are poorly geared. One problem is people don't know their characters are poorly geared. They're used to conventional MMOs where raid gear is best in slot; in DDO, maybe a couple raid items will be good for a build but most solid tetris involves gear from various quests and not raids. Equipping too many raid items will generally result in poor stats. Stacking all the various sources of stats in DDO is complex, it's not easy to do, so it's no wonder many people have issues with it. Sure, there's power to be had to past lives (that's just a fact), but people get so caught up on needing those past lives that they miss the easy goals of min/maxing their current life's build and gear.

you hit the nail on the head

knowing the quests is huge, and knowing them well may take dozens of runs or more

Gear is the key. After a few heroic lives, your bank is bursting with the 'right stuff' While new players don't have that luxury. The right gear at cap, can take months to get solo. Even if grouped up, newer players wont know what they actually need.

A 1st life character can be set up to do r1-r4 ...but it takes a veteran ddo player set up a character to do that. And it definitely takes a Vet to push past those skulls.

Vets can only help so much with newer players unless you static group with them. I always end up helping a few random players graduate into r1 each life. but, its way to common that their character is built for hard difficulty...and we wind up carrying them more than helping.

Those 400-600 hit point characters trying to do epic reaper can only take so much before they slunk back to soloing hard or just move to another game. There's just TMI to relay to random players in a few tfo's to get them to build a more effective character.

Playstyle goes a LONG way too in DDO. How many times will someone let themselves get surrounded and die before they try a different approach to a mob

 

[Blerkington]

If you want to do most or all of the character development it is quite a mountain.

Then you get to the peak and face the horrible epiphany that there is hardly anything to do at endgame with that character to which you devoted thousands of hours of play and possibly thousands of dollars too. A handful of relevant raids whose items have planned obsolescence. A bunch of reaper quests that only offer good RXP on the first run through.

At this point it might actually be worth putting up a big warning sign in Korthos telling people that there is no endgame, so if you ever get a character to a point where it is complete you will realise the joke is on you. Then your next choice will be to do it again or leave the game.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Either past lives matter and the grind should be reduced to make it more managable for new players or alts or past lives don't matter and they may aswell reduce the grind to make it more managable for new players and alts. Any position in between comes out to the exact same conclusion.

 

[Jasparius]

I'm not new, but I just recently have gotten into the endgame. I made a fighter on hardcore, leveled him to cap, transfered over and LRed with free stone into a tank. I threw a mishmash of sharn and feywild gear on him and off he went to tank LH raids.

You don't need 100 past lives or crazy grind raid gear to get into the endgame. Play a tank, a healer, a bard, or ranged dps and you can contribute meaningfully in pug raids on your first life with mediocre gear.

Don't get me wrong, I'm running on the hamster wheel too with my main, but if you're content to run LH/R1 raids, you can definitely get into it with very few past lives. I think new players are told they need 50000 part lives to keep up, and that is more discouraging than reality warrants.

Very few commented on this but its 100% true. With how powerful end game gear is you really dont miss out on much by not having 100 past lives. The biggest benefit for past lives is to make getting more past lives easy.

That said, I do like the idea of keeping 1st life XP for all lives. But only because Im about 70 past lives behind my friends.