To SSG; The endgame and the mountain we climb

[DilemmaEnder]

Even if a first lifer could solo every content in the game naked, blindfolded and running backwards the question of how long it should take to get all past lives would STILL be relevant. The question of whether or not they are needed is a distraction. They are key progression in a progression based game, attaining them is in itself a goal and I am missing any argument for why it should be near impossible for new characters or alts to catch up within a reasonable timeframe.

There is a lot being said here - but I think it boils down to expectation.

You seem to be expecting to be able to accomplish whatever you desire in a game. Every challenge and hurdle that is put before you. You seem to think that because something exists you should be able to do it. And you seem to be arguing that you cannot do this (or at least you cannot do it it what you deem a "reasonable" amount of time) and so it must be wrong. (Lets not discuss what "reasonable" could mean to each person!)

There are games that can not be "100% beaten" by the vast majority of players whom ever played them. Many of those types of games are some of the most popular games to have ever been made.

I believe the "Grind" is one of this game's strengths. I see it as the long term goal and while I am not sure I'll still be playing it 7 years from now (which is when I expect I'd reach Full-Completionist on my main if I keep going as I have been) if I am I will have succeeded at that challenge. If I am not still playing than that will have been my choice as well. The game owes me nothing. I will have achieved what I achieved knowing what it would take to do it from the onset and putting in the effort for as long as I saw the value in it.

This, this is the argument. Not whether the PL's matter, they are there, they exist. The question is what is considered (and not by the zergers who only play just this game or zip through content like roadrunner) a reasonable time to be able to attain all these achievements.

See my statement above.

Reasonable changes for each person.

I suppose it just means that this is one of those devisive things that will forever make players say to each other "Agree to disagree."

Then we can nod to each other as fellow gamers and go back to our separate digital lives.

 

[Lazuli]

I believe the "Grind" is one of this game's strengths. I see it as the long term goal and while I am not sure I'll still be playing it 7 years from now (which is when I expect I'd reach Full-Completionist on my main if I keep going as I have been) if I am I will have succeeded at that challenge. If I am not still playing than that will have been my choice as well. The game owes me nothing. I will have achieved what I achieved knowing what it would take to do it from the onset and putting in the effort for as long as I saw the value in it.

Reducing grind is not eliminating it. If they reduce it, you will still have grind for a lifetime. What we want is just that playing alts is not so penalized. That doesn't mean you won't have grind to bore.

What's more, many proposals made reducing grind a voluntary decision.

At the very least they should change the order of the racial PLs, that backload is horrible. But SSG should think about something else, the PL number has really gotten out of hand.

 

[Shear-buckler]

There is a lot being said here - but I think it boils down to expectation.

You seem to be expecting to be able to accomplish whatever you desire in a game. Every challenge and hurdle that is put before you. You seem to think that because something exists you should be able to do it. And you seem to be arguing that you cannot do this (or at least you cannot do it it what you deem a "reasonable" amount of time) and so it must be wrong. (Lets not discuss what "reasonable" could mean to each person!)

No, that is completely wrong. I don't expect to ever get perfect mythical items, perfect reaper items, perfect cursed items, every rare chase item or maxed out reaper trees. I personally don't even expect to get raid items at all, but that is a time zone and server population issue...

I have no problem at all with there being things in the game that I, or the average player, will never achieve.

My position is that past lives specifically should be attainable within a "reasonable" timeframe and it's purely a game design choice. I think that gathering past lives is a fundamental and strong part of the game that should not be a massive cliff that new players will never overcome. With more and more grind being added the existing grind should be reduced to eliviate the massive gap between new and established players.

There are games that can not be "100% beaten" by the vast majority of players whom ever played them. Many of those types of games are some of the most popular games to have ever been made.

Agree 100%

I believe the "Grind" is one of this game's strengths. I see it as the long term goal and while I am not sure I'll still be playing it 7 years from now (which is when I expect I'd reach Full-Completionist on my main if I keep going as I have been) if I am I will have succeeded at that challenge. If I am not still playing than that will have been my choice as well. The game owes me nothing. I will have achieved what I achieved knowing what it would take to do it from the onset and putting in the effort for as long as I saw the value in it.

I also the believe the grind is one of the games strength, but I think that it should be completable in less then a decade. Not because the game owes anything to anybody but because it will make the game better.

 

[Onyxia2016]

I challenge the concept that most people are getting carried because of lack of past lives. I think the typical player needs a good build and a solid gear setup (which is something they could easily be lacking either or both of) and they need to understand the mechanics for any given raid and their class. Telling most people they're being carried is a disservice (as long as they're built and geared correctly). I'd rather help people figure out how to improve their builds and how to tetris out their gear so they can enjoy the game right now.

Agree 100%

One does not need a dozen past lives to play any content in the game.
Does it help? Certainly but a sufficiently geared, built and knowledgeable player can contribute without being carried.
In fact I suspect the peopl who think they are carrying party members are simply not taking a moment to explain the mechanics and strategies.
Remember that players are not born with game knowledge and everyone is clueless the first time through.

I prefer to lift up rather than put down those with less experience just as I was helped and still am from time to time.

 

[owl]

HC season starts, everyone has zero existing gear nor past lives, and one levels to cap while grabbing 5k favor. Gear up at cap. Run various quests on r4 without ever dying. Reapers wings have been earned on HC. I think people have also run every raid on HC at this point. No HC season has lasted more than 3 months. So it sounds like we're faster than WoW for doing end game. All the past lives, higher difficulty settings, and things beyond that are just icing on the cake; all the content can be run on completely fresh characters quite fast. Sure there's player knowledge involved in that, but that's why vets generally share builds and gear advice with those who ask. If one feels they can't currently run r4+ at cap nor do raids, it's not the need of massive grind of past lives that's holding them back.

There is alot of truth to this, although most builds shared are just a list without all the important details like attack sequences and how to maximize the build. There is also alot of things experienced DDO players don't want to share.

While hardcore is something I enjoy, I tend to discount most hardcore achievements entirely because of the ability to accelerate progress significantly with spending. There is absolutely nothing wrong with spending money to improve your character, reduce your chance of dying or accelerate progress, but at least in my opinion it completely negates the meaning of leader boards or high-end achievements like getting wings. That is why most people just focus on getting their rewards and only a few people chase position on the leader boards.

With that said, I think we should give credit to the devs for what they've done to decrease the grind:

• Lowered heroic XP requirements for 3rd lifers significantly - almost half a million while simulatenously adding more content making it unnecessary to repeat any content
• Revamped epic destiny system to eliminate the need to level up in destinies
• Introduced heart seeds for people running lower difficulties to make epic reincarnation faster and more viable
• Reduced the dps nerf on high reaper which allowed more people to join reaper madness
• Lowered the cost of upgrading items with reaper fragments
• Eliminated the need to re-level up legendary levels
• Doubled the rxp for level 30+ quests making it much easier to accumulate reaper points
• Adding cursed cards to legendary saga rewards
• Ability to buy raid items with runes

I am sure I am missing some things. It's important to note that I haven't seen any negative impact of these grind reductions. I am not sure about SSG's perspective.

From a future perspective, I think SSG should look at making future grinds more front-loaded and even consider making existing grinds more front-loaded if possible/easy.

 

[T.O.]

I ran Outbreak last night. First time. R1. It's not a long quest, just 10 fights or so including the boss. Takes about 10 minutes counting the optional area with the chest. 12.5K XP. Overgrowth followed for 13K XP.

I mean what the heck? 12.5K XP at quest level 17? 13K in the same chain?

That's 50% less XP than any comparable Eberron quest.

These quests have somewhere between 50% and 200% less XP than anything else in the range.

It's like Eveningstar was intentionally devalued in XP because the expectation was that the quests would be run most often by Iconic characters on their 1st life starting at 15.

I agree it's one of the worst xp chains along side IQ. I have my list of quests I run to cap out heroics. Never have a problem with xp. It's not rocket science there is a lot of big xp quests. So many to keep a solid xp bank at every level past 5.

 

[rabidfox]

If SSG really wanted to mess with people, they could add in past life augments that provide that same bonuses various past lives offer that don't stack with actual past lives. Need better evoc DC's? Get sorc past lives or use the Sapphire of the Sorc to achieve the same results at the expense of an augment slot.

 

[Br4d]

I agree it's one of the worst xp chains along side IQ. I have my list of quests I run to cap out heroics. Never have a problem with xp. It's not rocket science there is a lot of big xp quests. So many to keep a solid xp bank at every level past 5.

I get bored pretty easily. I'm always running quests above my level at R1 to keep that in check. If I was willing to go slower earlier I'd probably make it to 20 easier but my bank of XP quests is basically gone by 16 or 17 at the outside.

 

[T.O.]

I get bored pretty easily. I'm always running quests above my level at R1 to keep that in check. If I was willing to go slower earlier I'd probably make it to 20 easier but my bank of XP quests is basically gone by 16 or 17 at the outside.

Pretty much run quests on r4+ in heroics. R1 is boring.

 

[Speed]

can solo R10 quests

What really new brings R10 except degrading your earned parameters, increasing others and adding few more reaper types that can appear on every quest over and over?
If someone wants reaper for challenge, then should choose proper amount of skulls and not invest in past lives and reaper tree.

 

[noinfoavailable]

From that perspective, what exactly is the problem with the grind to get all past lives being reduced?

None at all. I have no issue with them changing or making it easier and I am all for it especially since the devs keep adding things and you all know they want to add legendary TR and that will probably break me. However continuing to propagate the misconception that you need massive past lives to do anything is nonsense

 

[Jummby]

One of the things Lava Divers are really good at is dying and failing raids over and over again; sometimes for months on end. But we work as a team, figure out what's killing us, come up with plans to survive, redo builds (w/ adjusted gear) & group composites, and keep trying over and over and over and over... Those on the high end work hard to get the results; when one sees a post about beating (or soloing) X or Y content, you don't see the dozens upon dozens of tries where the group (or person)

None at all. I have no issue with them changing or making it easier and I am all for it especially since the devs keep adding things and you all know they want to add legendary TR and that will probably break me. However continuing to propagate the misconception that you need massive past lives to do anything is nonsense

The original post is about wanting to build up some lives for endgame builds. For people who play endgame, this can be a challenge. If putting lives on a toon didn't add a big advantage to it, you wouldn't see people buying ottos boxes and pots.

This isn't about "massive" amounts of lives. Its more about some for catching up a bit and it still being a grind.

 

[Weaponalpha]

So 5 years just to catch up to the current level, never mind all the grind that will be added along the way.

There has been no elivation to the grind (increased xp gain, decreased xp requirments etc) that has not been very well recieved or has not significantly improved the game. The grind has been piling on and we are long overdue for another grind reduction.

Yes, 5 years to catch up to players that have been playing for 15+ years. Seems reasonable.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Yes, 5 years to catch up to players that have been playing for 15+ years. Seems reasonable.

Yeah from the old players perspective I
agree that it sounds reasonable, but thats not how you should look at if you want new players to stick around. Players who have played 15 years are in no way negatively affected by the grind becoming reasonable from a new players perspective.

 

[Weaponalpha]

Yeah from the old players perspective I
agree that it sounds reasonable, but thats not how you should look at if you want new players to stick around. Players who have played 15 years are in no way negatively affected by the grind becoming reasonable from a new players perspective.

The fact that all content is "new" should be sufficient for the new players. getting items for the first time. getting racial completionist for the first time... if you dont enjoy just playing the game then that is on you. if you want to compeat with uber toons get uber. that is on you not SSG.

 

[Shear-buckler]

The fact that all content is "new" should be sufficient for the new players. getting items for the first time. getting racial completionist for the first time... if you dont enjoy just playing the game then that is on you. if you want to compeat with uber toons get uber. that is on you not SSG.

No, it's 100% on SSG to make the game appealing to new players.
By the time a player get any form of completionist the game will no longer be new, yet there will be 5-10 years of grinding left to do to catch up. That is a daunting prospect for a new player and has for a fact driven players away.

What surprises me is that this is defended without any sort of upside cited. What exactly is gained by retaining the extreme gap between new and established players?
Why was whatever that is not lost in any of the previous grund reductions we have had?

 

[rabidfox]

No, it's 100% on SSG to make the game appealing to new players.
By the time a player get any form of completionist the game will no longer be new, yet there will be 5-10 years of grinding left to do to catch up. That is a daunting prospect for a new player and has for a fact driven players away.

If someone has a pokemon gotta catch all the past life desire then they'll have a rough time of it. I suspect if one was to look at the overall game data of 'completionists vs active accounts' that total completionists would only make up a limited tiny amount of playerbase. It's not years to "catch up", it's years to catch a minority of players and have nothing left to do on your main; it then becomes time to grind that alt =). I've got a buddy who's played since around launch and I think his highest character has maybe a half-dozen past lives. I've got other friends who are similar in past lives and they go around having fun in the game and can do any quest/raid there is (on appropriate difficulties, which is often more limited by the fact that many of them don't even grind gear... I know, right? Can you imagine! And don't even get me started on some folks who never do reapers...). There's a wide spectrum of players in DDO, from those who play a couple times a year for fun, to those who push raid, and all sorts in-between. I don't think the majority of them are obsessed with needing past lives; they simply enjoy the process of earning them as they play the game.

 

[Shear-buckler]

If someone has a pokemon gotta catch all the past life desire then they'll have a rough time of it. I suspect if one was to look at the overall game data of 'completionists vs active accounts' that total completionists would only make up a limited tiny amount of playerbase. It's not years to "catch up", it's years to catch a minority of players and have nothing left to do on your main; it then becomes time to grind that alt =). I've got a buddy who's played since around launch and I think his highest character has maybe a half-dozen past lives. I've got other friends who are similar in past lives and they go around having fun in the game and can do any quest/raid there is (on appropriate difficulties, which is often more limited by the fact that many of them don't even grind gear... I know, right? Can you imagine! And don't even get me started on some folks who never do reapers...). There's a wide spectrum of players in DDO, from those who play a couple times a year for fun, to those who push raid, and all sorts in-between. I don't think the majority of them are obsessed with needing past lives; they simply enjoy the process of earning them as they play the game.

Again, what exactly is gained by retaining the extreme gap between new and established players?
Why was whatever that is not lost in any of the previous grund reductions we have had?

 

[Br4d]

No, it's 100% on SSG to make the game appealing to new players.
By the time a player get any form of completionist the game will no longer be new, yet there will be 5-10 years of grinding left to do to catch up. That is a daunting prospect for a new player and has for a fact driven players away.

What surprises me is that this is defended without any sort of upside cited. What exactly is gained by retaining the extreme gap between new and established players?
Why was whatever that is not lost in any of the previous grund reductions we have had?

There's no question that the DDO paradigm of endless TR's drives players and potential players away. That makes the task of catching whales *much* harder. However the game must still be profitable or SSG would have shuttered it/put it in maintenance mode.

The open question is whether having a permanent different mode available, one that appealed more to new and casual players would increase the bottom line or decrease it?

I would argue that new and casual players can always turn into whales at some point but players who never give DDO a chance because it seems so overbearing in it's initial presentation never will.

 

[rabidfox]

Again, what exactly is gained by retaining the extreme gap between new and established players?
Why was whatever that is not lost in any of the previous grund reductions we have had?

Lets break down some concepts then.
1) I've done more on HC than some people have ever done on their mains and there's others who've done way more than me on there. There's people like Dom and Legion who've earned wings on HC while there's people on live who might take years to get enough RXP for that (if ever). So people with zero past lives can do amazing things.

2) I assume (could be wrong) that I'm on the far edge when it comes to having all the past lives. And that the average player is closer to what I see Cordovan do in his live streams (with some people way out performing him and some people way under his power level & playstyle).

3) SSG likely balances the game around based off the average player like Cordovan (with some exceptions here and there to keep the extreme players under control). If the average player shifts in power then SSG will shift the balance too. It could easily go from 'a few select past lives are really nice to have' to being the expectation to be able to do content. HC shows that you don't need those past lives to play the game and do all the content; can even earn wings with enough free time, desire, and massive skill to not die (skill being a huge factor there).

I don't mind if past lives are faster to get. In fact, it would totally appeal to my desires in game as I love having them all, I'm a collect all the power obsessive type when it comes to games. But I also fully acknowledge I don't need them and if they're the norm for people to have them all then it would likely have effects on the entire game.