To SSG; The endgame and the mountain we climb

[dur]

tl/dr

The experience required to cap a third+ life character used to be 4.4m. It was reduced to make leveling faster. The reduced experience threshold worked as a catch up mechanic as leveling become much faster.

There used to be no bravery/delving bonus meaning you got far less experience per quest. The way you leveled at the time was to run quests multiple times. Running quests "E/H/NNNNNNN" was the typical way of leveling. The increased experience worked as a catch up mechanic as leveling become much faster.

You asked for examples of catch up mechanics, so there you go. I am having a really hard time getting how either of these changes made the game worse.

But.. go ahead. Keep repeating yourself and I will as well.. I did ask for examples and then explained how this game works, so that's the mechanics you want? Still sounds like a loot run after delving; k. whatever. agree to disagree. My Epic pulled a Two-Headed Coin, and another one on her FIRST RUN. It's LUCK.

Reducing grind is not eliminating it. If they reduce it, you will still have grind for a lifetime. What we want is just that playing alts is not so penalized. That doesn't mean you won't have grind to bore.

What's more, many proposals made reducing grind a voluntary decision.

At the very least they should change the order of the racial PLs, that backload is horrible. But SSG should think about something else, the PL number has really gotten out of hand.

You keep saying "grind." That will grate my nerves every time n is why I have 25 toons! *It's about Priorities.

If SSG really wanted to mess with people, they could add in past life augments that provide that same bonuses various past lives offer that don't stack with actual past lives. Need better evoc DC's? Get sorc past lives or use the Sapphire of the Sorc to achieve the same results at the expense of an augment slot.

Whatever the eff it takes to silence this or, wait.. maybe they come up with plausible ways SSG could "catchup" players who might not have a friggin clue what DnD, even, is... :X

I get bored pretty easily. I'm always running quests above my level at R1 to keep that in check. If I was willing to go slower earlier I'd probably make it to 20 easier but my bank of XP quests is basically gone by 16 or 17 at the outside.

Play more toons.

 

[dur]

There's no denying there's power there. But people in this thread (and in DDO in general) make completely bad faith claims about needing tons of past lives to do basic content. People claim you can't raid without them. People claim you can't do reaper quests without them. People claim blah blah blah etc. etc. etc. IMO these bad myths are bad for overall game health. When I came back to the game a few years ago, I read the forums & reddit and bought into the false narrative that I shouldn't do reapers nor raid until I had X and Y past lives. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now; and I wish people had spoken up louder to tear down that narrative. I spent entirely too much time grinding out past lives before I began doing raids and reapers that I wish I'd been doing from the get-go because I believed what I read.

That having been said, yeah, select past lives will be stronger than others for certain builds and they're great to have. And people that enjoy the game should go after the ones that aid the playstyles they enjoy. But in the meantime, they should enjoy the game and know they can do every quest and every raid in the game right now regardless of where they're at (on difficulties relative to a ton of factors ranging from builds, gear, game knowledge, past lives, etc. --- I suppose someone could have a character built so poorly that wouldn't hold true but that's likely an extreme exception)

A good narrative to me would be "I'd like to have more and faster access to the past lives because it feels fun, it opens builds, and I personally would enjoy it and want it for less effort and/or time commitment" as opposed to "think of the newbies, they can't do anything until they do 100 lives..." I too would enjoy having past lives flow fast on my alts (as my main is done), but it's entirely for selfish reasons that I'd want those past lives faster.

There are many ways to play this game. It DOES NOT have to be a "grind." BTW, How many toons do you have, Rabidfox?

*I've built 25 but no 2 are alike.

 

[Shear-buckler]

I have asked several times how many past lives is required and asked you what xp should the new max be?
Nobody seems to have any clue to what it is. Other than their idea is for the "new players".

Yes and those questions does not make sense.
How many past lives are required for what? HC proves that no PL is required. My position is clear and I have repeated this through our the thread. "Either past lives are important and the grind should be reduced to make it more managable for new characters or past lives don't matter and they may aswell reduce the grind to make it more managable for new characters. Any position in between comes out to the exact same conclusion. The only valid argument against this is that the grind becomes too short."

I have not has asked for a new max xp or suggested that it should change. The heroic XP cap was only brought up as an example of a grind reduction that has already occured and no one seem to be able to explain in what way it was negative for the game even when their position is that grind reduction are always bad. It's very simple really. If you are against the very concept of grind reduction you have to explain how the game was made worse by changing the heroic experience cap from 4.3 mil to 3.8 mil and why it was a bad thing that leveling speed was significantly increased when then made the first-time xp bonuses much bigger.

 

[Shear-buckler]

But.. go ahead. Keep repeating yourself and I will as well.. I did ask for examples and then explained how this game works,

What are you talking about? You literally asked for catch up mechanics. I gave you two examples.

so that's the mechanics you want? Still sounds like a loot run after delving;

I have no idea what mechanic you are refering to. Can you please be specific.
What sounds like a loot run after delving?

k. whatever. agree to disagree. My Epic pulled a Two-Headed Coin, and another one on her FIRST RUN. It's LUCK.

What? How is luck related to past life grind? There is no chance involved. I think we are talking past each other, I don't understand a word of your post as a response to anything I have said.
I am happy to agree to disagree but I have literally no idea what we disagree on

 

[dur]

[/snip]

What? How is luck related to past life grind? There is no chance involved. [/snip]

:dies again!:

Luck is a hidden stat on all toons. (**OR RNG!! WHICH IS TOTALLY CHANCE!!) )Is how my Paladin has MANY items from FIRST run. What purposed does nnnnn after H/E serve?


***I am not saying I know anything about this luck stat, but I'd swear on my toons life (heh) it exists. Check your luck with Seamus Luckypenny

 

[Shear-buckler]

:dies again!:

Luck is a hidden stat on all toons. Is how my Paladin has MANY items from FIRST run.

Sure mate.

What purposed does nnnnn after H/E serve?

It used to serve the purpose of leveling your character before we had massive first time bonuses and a reduced heroic level cap requirement. Repeating quests on normal was standard procedure when leveling.

 

[dur]

It used to serve the purpose of leveling your character before we had massive first time bonuses and a reduced heroic level cap requirement. Repeating quests on normal was standard procedure when leveling.

So that was then, and (n) from the looks of it, ransack. Hirelings were introduced. Remember what a PITA healing was before them?

**Remember what a PITA the DEATH PENALTY was before that? Remember when you couldn't get a vorpal weapon before level 9? -11?

 

[Shear-buckler]

So that was then n from the looks of it, ransack.

It had nothing to do with looting. The first time bonuses were so low that the best way to level was to play the best XP quests and run them multiple times.

Hirelings were introduced. Remember what a PITA healing was before them?

Are you saying that hierlings can be considered another catch up mechanic?

Personally I find using a hierling for healing more of a PITA than just making a character that can self heal, but that's just me

 

[dur]

It had nothing to do with looting. The first time bonuses were so low that the best way to level was to play the best XP quests and run them multiple times.


Are you saying that hierlings can be considered another catch up mechanic?

Personally I find using a hierling for healing more of a PITA than just making a character that can self heal, but that's just me

IT HAD EVERYTHING to do with looting!! PLAT WAS REVERED! There was no AS Exchange.

Yeah, all stil sucks bu it drop loot y need. ***Got a Portable Hole tonite, Funny how those old quests can do that., got Ioun stones too n didn't have to run Dreaming $%^&# Dark. Luck.

Hirelings will keep you alive through your foibles. ..assuming your have one that compliments your playstyle, **and are not pushing your luck.

***Old times: The House D/k vendors were full; the Marketplace vendors were full, etc.. at least Eveningstar vendors seem busy

self-heal takes a certain build.

 

[Shear-buckler]

IT HAD EVERYTHING to do with looting!! PLAT WAS REVERED! There was no AS Exchange.

Sorry but no, the notion that players repeated low/mid level quests on normal while leveling had nothing to do with looting or plat. It was simply the best way, if not the only way, to level.

Here is straight from the wiki:

Loading…

ddowiki.com

NHE or N/H/E
Abbreviations for Normal/Hard/Elite (quest difficulty levels), sometimes used individually. When used together, typically suggests a party leader wishes to complete the quest on normal, then hard, then elite. When farming XP, multiples might be used (e.g. N/N/N/N/N/H/E). C (Casual) is rarely listed.

Hirelings will keep you alive through your foibles. ..assuming your have one that compliments your playstyle, **and are not pushing your luck. The D/k vendors were full; the MP vendors were full. Yeah, so, anyway..

Still never been a fan of hierlings, never needed them. To each their own.

 

[songswrath]

Going chime in here with my thoughts of the topic. Are many pasted lifes needed no. Do they help yes greatly even more so with ones like epic and race lifes that given more appreciation to spend on your build.
But I will say this many new players think it cool when you are like a God and just destroy content. But there is always the flip side many hate and find it no fun to play with ppl that kill everything so quickly.
Don't believe me play a melee in a group ranged toons. You feel so worthless cause everything is dead before you even get near it to swing your axe. Melee players you know what I am talking about. You stun a mob about to hit the final blow to kill
. Bam fod intsa death that monster. This is how new players feel.

My point here is this a old game and many have toons they play for years. The power creep is real and nothing we can do about it. If your are one of them ubbers just think of others enjoying the game too don't kill everything let them have some fun too. Hell I beat down a mob to 10% and let someone else kill it cause I understand the feeling of being worthless in a group.

Do I think the exp curve needs some work I do. I really like to see more people with maxed out toons. We need to stop adding heroic lvl quests game needs more epic and legendary some thing to test yourself capped

 

[Shear-buckler]

Do I think the exp curve needs some work I do. I really like to see more people with maxed out toons. We need to stop adding heroic lvl quests game needs more epic and legendary some thing to test yourself capped

Yeah. We got the new challenge quests and that was great. It's just a shame that instead of making the quest a staple of the games endgame for the next decade by adding curse cleansers to saga rewards they decided to make the quests largely pointless by adding the cards themselves to saga rewards...

I have low expectations, but that still surprised me.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Everyone knows that -ology trumps -ophy. The known negative consequences to date of said changes are headaches, runny nose, constipation and/or diarhea. Also, a slippery slope refers to one action leading to another negative action ultimately resulting in a disastrous event whereas the if you give a mouse a cookie theory i.e. IYGAMACT pertains to cause and effect which can either be good OR bad. you can read about it in my article in Psychology Today.

So no negative consequences?

 

[dur]

Sorry but no, the notion that players repeated low/mid level quests on normal while leveling had nothing to do with looting or plat. It was simply the best way, if not the only way, to level.

Here is straight from the wiki:

Loading…

ddowiki.com

NHE or N/H/E
Abbreviations for Normal/Hard/Elite (quest difficulty levels), sometimes used individually. When used together, typically suggests a party leader wishes to complete the quest on normal, then hard, then elite. When farming XP, multiples might be used (e.g. N/N/N/N/N/H/E). C (Casual) is rarely listed.

I'm aware of the abbreviations, I've been using them. Wiki.. what does wiki have to say about the history of plat farming? Nothing, I'll wager . . . Either way, clearly you poo-poo that notion. More the fool you.

Going chime in here with my thoughts of the topic. Are many pasted lifes needed no. Do they help yes greatly even more so with ones like epic and race lifes that given more appreciation to spend on your build.
But I will say this many new players think it cool when you are like a God and just destroy content. But there is always the flip side many hate and find it no fun to play with ppl that kill everything so quickly.
Don't believe me play a melee in a group ranged toons. You feel so worthless cause everything is dead before you even get near it to swing your axe. Melee players you know what I am talking about. You stun a mob about to hit the final blow to kill
. Bam fod intsa death that monster. This is how new players feel.

My point here is this a old game and many have toons they play for years. The power creep is real and nothing we can do about it. If your are one of them ubbers just think of others enjoying the game too don't kill everything let them have some fun too. Hell I beat down a mob to 10% and let someone else kill it cause I understand the feeling of being worthless in a group.

Yeah, it's disappointing to have barrels disintegrate in front of you but when the mobs come...

Run run solo (with or w/o hires) n see how that feels. Really helps you build your toon.

**n Yeah, the power creep is real. so tell SSG to KNOCK IT OFF.

-- I really like to see more people with maxed out toons. We need to stop adding heroic lvl quests game needs more epic and legendary some thing to test yourself capped --

Uh, wha?

 

[Shear-buckler]

I'm aware of the abbreviations, I've been using them. Wiki.. what does wiki have to say about the history of plat farming? Nothing, I'll wager . . . Either way, clearly you poo-poo it.

So your position is that back in the day before bravery/delving bonuses and the reduced heroic xp cap and the norm was to run most quests E/H/NNNNNN while leveling we did so because of plat and not because of xp?

 

[dur]

No. What? OMG I'm out if you cannot answer 1 question: are you plat maxed?

**We ran FOR PLAT, DUDE!! and hoped we didn't die. LOL

 

[dur]

End game. ROFLMAO!!! What's the End Game in an MMO?! OMFG... ROFLMAO

*for our younger viewers: the end-game in an MMo is to get as much $$$$$$$$ from you as they can.

 

[Shear-buckler]

No. What? OMG I'm out if you cannot answer 1 question: are you plat maxed?

**We ran FOR PLAT, DUDE!! and hoped we didn't die. LOL

Then what did you say no to?

Is there a wise and kind soul out there than can breach the language barrier and explain what Dur is saying to me?

 

[Cyran]

No. What? OMG I'm out if you cannot answer 1 question: are you plat maxed?

**We ran FOR PLAT, DUDE!! and hoped we didn't die. LOL

As someone who remember running CO6 part 2 E/H/NNNNNN for exp (back then there was no doors or enemies at end you was required to kill so one person ran to end while everyone else waited at start) or doing the same for Doom of the witch-doctor: The way to Zulkash in tangleroot I can tell you for sure it was for exp and not plat since no one got any plat from those two quests. The reason we did it 8 times is not because of loot ransack but because of that was the max time till it stopped giving exp.

For plat/loot we did stuff like Thernal side caves and other quick chests that had max loot tables at the time.

 

[woq]

One can basically go from 17 to 20 right now off Sharn & cogs as 3rd+ lifer. At 1st lifer rates one would go from 15 to 20 off that same XP. We skip a ton of content already with current XP rates and can already level fairly quickly. At some point, one is barely playing the game and just skipping most content. You could put a lever in the harbor that awarded XP each time it was pulled and there'd be some people that would pull it over and over if it leveled them at a speed they wanted. But getting from A to Z fast isn't necessarily healthy for the game if means people are missing out on most of the game in the process.

I think it's a great thing that you can pick and choose what you do and most importantly that it's somewhat different between each life. As soon as the mentality turns into "this is the most efficient path and this I will do forever" I lose the fun of it, but that's subjective. I do think the amount of lives attainable causes feelings of pressure to optimize leveling routes and doing them over and over to get faster and better at doing them. That is simply how progression based power games work.

However for the D&D side of things, I think it's a net boon for a Dungeons and Dragons game that every life can be substantially different experience in terms of quests done. Ideally I think you should WANT to run different quests on every subsequent life to keep the experience novel for a longer time and every adventure should ideally be different. I'd like the option to avoid certain quest lines on a given life and do them on another to keep things fresh for me and as a newly returned player I've truly enjoyed this part of the increased variety and lower heroic xp requirements in the game. I already look forward to doing something different in my next heroic reincarnation than I did this time around. I did ask for an epic route or ideas for what to do next since I felt a bit ungrounded upon reaching low epics, but that wasn't because there was a lack of things to do, just lacked the direction and my choice paralysis kicked in.

TLDR: I think it plays to the strengths of a reincarnation system if every reincarnation can have a completely, 100% different journey than the last.