U62 Preview 2 W Scalar Revamp

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Torc

Torc

Systems Developer
With this pass we are standardizing weapons across the entire game to follow a new W scale. This will affect all named weapons and shields, with exceptions listed below.

Exceptions:

Like all of DDO, blanket rules of balance are closer to guidelines. In this case, although changing every single item programmatically was on the table, we opted for a more individual approach so we could keep a close eye on things that deserve a little more care. To that end, here are the exceptions to this overhaul and some rules to help guide understanding of the process:

  • Items that are level split - aka have Normal/Hard/Elite versions, will remain as-is.
  • Very old legacy items with sufficient creative nostalgia or effort required to obtain them (such as heroic Greensteel) will remain as-is.
  • Specialty scripted quest items (such as the Earthcarver Shard) will remain as-is.
  • Old event items that have been retired with remain as-is
  • Crafted items that gain minimum levels when they are upgraded (such as Alchemical) will have their dice set to the highest minimum level they could obtain.
  • Note that this does not affect things that boost W score on weapons, such as Vorpal or the Deadly Weapons spell. We are changing the base W on the weapon itself, and not adjusting any W-boosting gear or effects. If a weapon is level 30, it will be 5W, and casting Deadly Weapons will make it 6W as expected.
Our big goal with this was to provide a way for our items to scale upwards as the level cap continues to increase, and fix up some of the dead zone concentrated around high heroics and early epics where gear advancement isn't as meaningful. We also really wanted to smooth out our curve - right now weapons kind of flounder around a bit and then zoop all the way up to 5W without warning. We hope that this new scalar allows you to enjoy using more level appropriate weapons, and we hope that the sizeable boost in W for items in some of those previously-strangely-scaled level ranges give some much needed love to some old favorites.

Fun fact, this means that the Epic Sword of Shadow is actually getting stronger. Before it was level 20 and 2.5W - under this new scalar, level 20 means 3W.

LevelW ScalarLevelW ScalarLevelW Scalar
1-101.0W
111.2W213.2W315.2W
121.4W223.4W325.4W
131.6W233.6W335.6W
141.8W243.8W345.8W
152.0W254.0W356.0W
162.2W264.2W366.2W
172.4W274.4W376.4W
182.6W284.6W386.6W
192.8W294.8W396.8W
203.0W305.0W407.0W
 
rabidfox

rabidfox

The People's Champion
I don't see any colors noting any changes. Were weapons that got missed last time given updated numbers; should we be checking them all again or what all do you need feedback/checks on for this this time?

It looks like some stuff got fixed since last lam and some stuff is still missing their [W]'s.
qQiyCWZ.jpg

Unless Treason falls under:
  • Very old legacy items with sufficient creative nostalgia or effort required to obtain them (such as heroic Greensteel) will remain as-is.
But I feel no nostalgia in having reduced damage on old gear vs modern design.
 
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nobodynobody1426

Well-known member
As proposed this was be technically a nerf to raid / upgraded weapons, which on principle defeats the purpose.

Suffering, the Half of Whole
ML28 Ravenloft Raid Dagger
Currently 5W, would be nerfed to 4.6W

Legendary Morninglord's Greatsword
ML29 Weapon, given for free when entering Ravenloft the First time
Currently 5W, would be nerfed to 4.8W

Legendary Echo of Blackrazor
ML29 weapon drop from quest
Currently 5W, would be nerfed to 4.8W

Reflection of Blackrazor
ML28 weapon, upgrade from KT raid sharns
Currently 5W, would be nerfed to 4.6W lower then it's base item and a free weapon

Either some sort of adjustment needs to be made for raid weapons, or just increase the ML to match the new system.
 
C

CBDunk

Well-known member
Hmmm, I compared the text of this message to the P1 message and they are essentially the same. A few minor wording changes, but no apparent change to what is happening with W scaling.

As such, I continue to be in favor of the idea overall.

The only real issue I see is that this results in a lot of 'current end game' weapons receiving slight nerfs. Grandfathering those in, or delaying the change (maybe just for level 26+ weapons) until they are mostly obsolete anyway could significantly decrease complaints.

Might also be a good idea to keep the level 10 Barovian weapons at 1.5W, as these are VERY popular for early leveling.
 
L

l_remmie

Well-known member
Raid weapons should have the W according to their iLVL.
Being able to use them a few lvls earlier is a bonus on the weapon like mastercrafted.
 
The Blonde

The Blonde

Catalogues Bugs
@Torc Good job, almost everything got fixed. Let's squash the remaining ones.

~~~ Exhaustive list of remaining bugs ~~~

Things that should have gotten the new formula but didn't:

1) Randomgen weapons & shields

2) Cannith-Crafted weapons & shields

3) Unstable Handwraps & Alchemical Handwraps (and I suspect Thunderforged Handwraps but didn't check) - you may wanna do a double-check on handwraps in general

4) The Fall of Truth weapons & shield (CitW weapons got on the new formula, and this is CitW's sister raid, please don't exclude it)

5) Reaver's Fate weapons & shield (if not placed on the new formula, it would be the only raid in the game with weapons that are not on the new [W] formula)

Other things that are still wrong:

6) Dethek Runestone went from 5[W] to 5.2[W] at ML26, whereas it should be 4.2[W].

7) Harbinger of Madness weapons (both from chain reward and the quests themselves) are 2[W] at ML14, whereas they should be 1.8[W].

8) Unkor's Cleaver, Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger, and Staff of Inner Sight are still 1.5[W], need to have their [W] decreased by 0.5[W]

9) The following need their enhancement bonuses fixed (pretty please, it's been ages):
- Heroic Ravenloft gear (read: Barovian weapons, Macabre weapons, Armors, Shields, Orbs, Hound of Night, Sinister Handaxe) & Sands of Menechtarun gear (weapons/armors/shields) down to a +4 enhancement bonus (from their non-WAI current +5 at ML10).
- Heroic Web of Chaos weapons to a +5 enhancement bonus (up from their non-WAI current +4 at ML16).

10) Schism Shard items are just plain wrong as is; they go from ML29 weapons to ML28 weapons and as such their [W] decreases. Even if you don't wanna get the Legendary Raid weapons off this new [W] curve, please do something to the Schism Shard items to make them make sense (even if it's just bumping their ML up to 29..)
 
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Thorntoe

Well-known member
#1, and #2 are not bugs. Torc specifically wrote in the second sentence, "This will affect all named weapons and shields..."

It is disappointing, but not a bug.
 
The Blonde

The Blonde

Catalogues Bugs
Thorntoe said:
#1, and #2 are not bugs. Torc specifically wrote in the second sentence, "This will affect all named weapons and shields..."

It is disappointing, but not a bug.
Click to expand...
Good catch, although I hope that wording only applies to the Lamannia previews. I can't imagine they'd deploy this new [W] curve without putting randomgen/CC gear on it.
 
C

CBDunk

Well-known member
The Blonde said:
Good catch, although I hope that wording only applies to the Lamannia previews. I can't imagine they'd deploy this new [W] curve without putting randomgen/CC gear on it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, wow. I hadn't realized that. I doubt many people are using randomgen weapons past around level 10, but not including this on Cannith crafting would basically make that obsolete for weapons past the early game.

The Blonde said:
10) Schism Shard items are just plain wrong as is; they go from ML29 weapons to ML28 weapons and as such their [W] decreases. Even if you don't wanna get the Legendary Raid weapons off this new [W] curve, please do something to the Schism Shard items to make them make sense (even if it's just bumping their ML up to 29..)
Click to expand...

There are a bunch of 'difficult to obtain' weapons that will be nerfed by this change. The Schism Shard items are by far the worst. Given the amount of work that goes into obtaining those, I can only imagine how angry people will be to discover that it now actually makes them WEAKER.

I'd continue to suggest something like holding off on applying this change to level 26+ weapons until level 34 (or higher) weapons are introduced and make them mostly obsolete. Failing that, making adjustments on a per weapon basis (starting with Schism Shard items) might be ok, but you'll inevitably miss some and still annoy people for little reason.
 
Spook

Spook

Well-known member
I think they should just leave 26-30 raid weapons as 5W they are not BiS but nerfing them now will just annoy players - I would probably create augment recipes out of as many as possible to encourage players to crunch them rather than hoard them
 
Y

YeeboF

Well-known member
Darksteel said:
After 8 pages of feedback, not a single change to [W] values?
Click to expand...
Yeah, locked in stone. This is just a heads up really. Not sure why they are pretending to ask for feedback.

Edit: Ok, it seems that the scaling is intended to apply to randgen, so the longer part of my comment was unwarranted. I'm still grumpy about the lack of scaling until 12, when it currently starts at 10. That's a serious martial nerf at 10-11, and a minor one at 12-13 and 29. But not an issues I would go so far as to call "hairbrained" ;-)
 
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Darksteel

Darksteel

Well-known member
YeeboF said:
Yeah, locked in stone. This is just a heads up really. Not sure why they are pretending to ask for feedback.
Click to expand...
I would rather they lock the thread if they do not want feedback so we can read and move on. Opening up for comments gives a false sense of requesting for feedback when you the changes are set in stone.
 
SteelStar

SteelStar

Senior Systems Designer
The Blonde said:
@Torc Good job, almost everything got fixed. Let's squash the remaining ones.

~~~ Exhaustive list of remaining bugs ~~~

Things that should have gotten the new formula but didn't:

1) Randomgen weapons & shields

2) Cannith-Crafted weapons & shields

3) Unstable Handwraps & Alchemical Handwraps (and I suspect Thunderforged Handwraps but didn't check) - you may wanna do a double-check on handwraps in general

4) The Fall of Truth weapons & shield (CitW weapons got on the new formula, and this is CitW's sister raid, please don't exclude it)

5) Reaver's Fate weapons & shield (if not placed on the new formula, it would be the only raid in the game with weapons that are not on the new [W] formula)

Other things that are still wrong:

6) Dethek Runestone went from 5[W] to 5.2[W] at ML26, whereas it should be 4.2[W].

7) Harbinger of Madness weapons (both from chain reward and the quests themselves) are 2[W] at ML14, whereas they should be 1.8[W].

8) Unkor's Cleaver, Ancient Vulkoorim Dagger, and Staff of Inner Sight are still 1.5[W], need to have their [W] decreased by 0.5[W]

9) The following need their enhancement bonuses fixed (pretty please, it's been ages):
- Heroic Ravenloft gear (read: Barovian weapons, Macabre weapons, Armors, Shields, Orbs, Hound of Night, Sinister Handaxe) & Sands of Menechtarun gear (weapons/armors/shields) down to a +4 enhancement bonus (from their non-WAI current +5 at ML10).
- Heroic Web of Chaos weapons to a +5 enhancement bonus (up from their non-WAI current +4 at ML16).

10) Schism Shard items are just plain wrong as is; they go from ML29 weapons to ML28 weapons and as such their [W] decreases. Even if you don't wanna get the Legendary Raid weapons off this new [W] curve, please do something to the Schism Shard items to make them make sense (even if it's just bumping their ML up to 29..)
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for the detailed feedback! On our end, we're able to see random-gen and crafting weapons/shields with the new scaling flow - would you mind giving us some additional details about what's not scaling correctly so we can take a look?
 
Mordenkainen

Mordenkainen

Please SSG, no more nerfs. Thank you!
Oh well. Anyway, I'm not griping too much about it as long as the other stuff goes in right now.

In all, the rest of the changes are solid.
 
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